my carburettor seeks freedom from its computer control (electronic enslavement)

[TheSilentChamber]

Yeah, your right, price on the mega squirt kits (even version 1) have about trippled sence last time I looked at them. You used to be able to get the kit for less than $100.

[beef_bourito]

Wow, this thread is pretty interesting, makes me want to get a little tinker-car (like an 80's civic or something with a carb).

anyways i think the simplicity of a carb would be good for what you want to do. efi would be more difficult to tune and everything. hell, you might be able (and that's a decent sized MIGHT) to do a quad carb system since this is a fun car to play around with, i think it might be a little fun project, it won't give you any real improvements if you get a turbo though. the problem with carbs is that they are very very difficult to tune for a turbocharger and dont give you the performance that an efi system would. I would opt for going for a later model's efi system if it's available. if there are some, go to a junkyard, pick up a bunch of stuff, enough that you could "forget" to show some stuff and they wouldn't notice that you took some extra becauuse you're already claiming quite a few things. so if there's something small, just stick it in your toolbox. most places like these don't have any kind of survailance so they won't even notice.

also, if you get some stuff you don't need, just come back later and tell them that it didn't work or whatever and ask if you can get your money back if you go put them back on the vehicle.

[TheSilentChamber]

Dont steal from the junk yard, most are just family owned operations trying to earn an honest buck.

[psychopathicdude]

shame on you Mr. (beef_bouri)T(o) !!

I like the fine folks at my Automotive Dismantling and Salvage yard*, they've given me lots of little pieces for free (small hoses, electrical connectors, etc.) Or they say: "eh, don't worry about...we know you'll be back...catch ya then" They're cool like that. I'm sorry if you think that stealing parts is the only way to get a good deal. Perhaps your flawed logic is the reason for your skewed perception of the world (in relation to honesty in business relations, that is).

I do recommend getting a tinker car, its so much more fun to have pieces of your car's engine spread all over the garage when you don't have to put it all back together before morning so you can drive to work and get money to pour into your insane automotive project! But don't steal from junkyards*!! I'd laugh if "bad car-ma" catches you and your project car of stolen junkyard* parts gets stolen and parted out to junkyards*. Could you really be mad? It'd be going "full circle"

UncleBob, "draw-thru's do suck"....of course, duh! where do you think the name came from? the turbo is sucking on the carb....he he he...i know it's not the "Best System EVER!!!" but I want to try it. just cuz. if it "sucks" as bad as everyone says, i'll "re-engineer it." But I want to try it first! "It won't work" is like "I triple dog dare you" with me...

As for the carb not working without the stuff, I unplugged everything yesterday, and it ran like a champ! when i plugged the solenoid valves back in, the engine sputtered, almost died, then settled into a lumpy, "i really don't want to idle" kind of idle. whereas just before, with it all unplugged, it would idle smoothly, almost purring. and it "feels" smoother and maybe a bit more powerful when the stuff was unplugged. But I want to simplify the underhood system, and I am still convinced that it is a worthwhile endeavor.

Quick question....has anyone ACTUALLY removed the feedback systems from the carburettor on an otherwise well running car? I hear a lot of "It needs that stuff" and "You'll never get it right" but I'm not hearing the "I did it and here's what happened" which is what I was really asking for in my original post. I don't need "It won't work"...but if you can tell me why it didn't work for you, then we're getting somewhere.

* junkyard is a slang term for an Automotive Dismantling and Salvage yard. Unless they have a crusher. then the term fits rather neatly. (In My Humble Opinion....)

[Moppie]

I think all the different feed back systems used all work quite differently.

I know if you disable it on my Prelude it won't work.
However, I also know there are some settings that set mechanicly on the carb, and then overridden, or controled by the ECM.
For example idle speed is set mechanicaly, but over ridden when its cold so it runs faster and richer.
Removing the feed back system would remove the choke control, making the car impossible to start when cold. However, if you warmed the car up, then removed only that part of it, it would still run very well.

Its possible the Subaru system is a lot simpler than the Honda system (which wouldnt surprise me, the Honda system is an excerise in complexity) and it may only over ride machanical settings when it thinks something needs changing.
Its quite possible the carb, set mechanicaly, works very well, and the feed back system only works to make it a little more efficient, or in this case works to make it a little more in-effcient.

[psychopathicdude]

It is my understanding of the Subaru system from reading the manual, looking at the engine, tracing hoses, minor disassembly, and from my mechanical intuition, that the carb is self contained, and the feedback system hangs parasitically off various parts of the manifold. And though it at times interferes, it has no direct mechanical control over any carb settings.

Also, my carb has an electric choke that is completely independant of the "shenanigans" going on elsewhere. I do not intend to remove the choke. it gets cold here. that would be a bad move. I believe the carb is up to the task of mixing fuel and air, then feeding said mixture into the engine. The feedback system was necessary to sell the carb-equipped car in California in 1986. I live in a part of Colorado which does not require emissions testing. And I get the feeling that the feedback system doesn't work quite as well as it did 200,000 miles ago. Therefore, I wish to evaluate the carb's performance without the system (requiring the system's removal). We'll see where I go from there.

As for recommendations and preferances toward other systems, methodologies, feel free to rant on your own thread.... that's what the "start new thread" button is for.

[Moppie]

Then rip that evil parsitic sucker off the carb and see what happens.

[TheSilentChamber]

If you unhooked everything and it ran fine, what was the point of this thread?

[UncleBob]

I think it was to ask a question so he could not like anyone's suggestions that didn't follow his original preference

I think you should convert it to propane

[UncleBob]

Originally Posted by beef_bourito

the problem with carbs is that they are very very difficult to tune for a turbocharger and dont give you the performance that an efi system would.

this is plain bull. You have two choices. you can jump into unknown waters, where people have never gone before, and it might be simple, and it might not be....but this greatly depends on the person doing the experimenting. Or you can take a tried and true system, where someone has already done all the research for you. Let me tell you there are dozens and dozens of carb blow thru systems than have been tried and tested that you can copy to a 'T" that will get you very good results.

They may not be as EASY to tune as a fancy EFI system....but lets get this straight. Too many people think that a EFI system with a FMU is better than a carb'ed system. There is many different flavors of carbs and EFI, and there is definitely worse situations with EFI than there is carb'd, depending on the examples. FMU's are one of them.

But then, if you know what you're doing in the beginning, you don't need a perfect step-by-step instruction for a given circumstances....This is where one or the other gets a bad name...its from people making an attempt at it and they don't know what they are doing. Good recipe for someone to get frustrated and quit. But then they don't say "I don't know what I was doing, therefore I suck". No, they say instead "blow thru carbs are too difficult to tune".

You have to read between the lines.

[UncleBob]

Originally Posted by psychopathicdude

UncleBob, "draw-thru's do suck"....of course, duh! where do you think the name came from? the turbo is sucking on the carb....he he he...i know it's not the "Best System EVER!!!" but I want to try it. just cuz. if it "sucks" as bad as everyone says, i'll "re-engineer it." But I want to try it first! "It won't work" is like "I triple dog dare you" with me...

Its not a question of it "working"....it can work OK, but the design of it, it will not idle well, it will not have low-throttle response that is good. Its also, IMO, harder to tune.

I wont' tell you not to try it, because it has been done many times in history with decent "success". But....and this is a big but....if you want a fun street vehicle with good idle quality and stock-like drivability, a draw-thru is definitely not the correct direction to go.

You will find die-hard draw-thru' users if you look for them, and they will tell you its "easy".....and maybe if you follow their suggestions perfectly, you will be happy. But I tell you this, every draw thru system I've had personal contact with has had the same issues no matter what they said on the net. They didn't idle well, and they had low throttle response issues. Even if they said otherwise.....

Blowthru on the other hand....not a problem

[beef_bourito]

sorry, i didn't write what i wanted to write. what i meant to say is that they usually won't give you the performance you want because they're more difficult to tune and if you don't do it right, it'll suck. with efi it's more forgiving when it comes to small mistakes.

[psychopathicdude]

Am I the only person that reads posts from the beginning?

My original question, and "the purpose of this thread" was to see if anyone had removed or otherwise disabled a feedback control system on a "computer/carburetted" car. Some of the responses have actually shared useful insight. I believe I'm entitled to ignore the others, because A: they sought to answer a question that was never asked, and B: they were immaterial to the question that WAS asked. If that offends you, I do not apologize. Your preference may be for a different system, a different method, or for leaving the car "as it was when it rolled out the factory door". That's great, and I'm proud of you for standing up for what you believe in.

My car has a carburettor and it works fine! ...when the computer doesn't interfere. From research, and some online feedback, I became convinced that the feedback system could be removed, so I tried simply unplugging everything (which still leaves a lot of crap under the hood, so is not a full solution). I had not disconnected those wires until just then when I posted that I had done so! The car idles and runs much better now. I am going to dive into taking the system completely out, as soon as I can set aside the time (and floorspace in the garage).

As for all the systems touted and slammed by various posters, let's hear some stories! I'd love to hear about what did or didn't work for you. But vague generalizations and repetitious babblings are a waste of my time. Thank you, but no.

(the following is a little hypothetical game)

I walk into the grocery store and ask where the bananas are, and the clerk tells me : "bananas suck. you need apples, aisle 5." "Um...okay. but where are the bananas?" "I'm telling you man, bananas are bad. I mean, you're really better off going with apples. aisle 5, bro." I happen to know that I like bananas. To me, bananas are good. I'm asking for banana information, and all this guy wants to do is sell apples!! How frustrating would that be?!? not just for me, but also for apple-guy. He can't convince me of his perspective, because it's counter to my own. And I can't convince him, for the same reason. Sound familiar? Now, to recap: I walked in and asked where the bananas are. Don't accuse me of asking which is better, then rejecting the answer. That's not the question I asked. Fruit preference is not in question here.

BANANAS, %^*&@$&*#@&@!!!

And when I finish this project and get it all running, you're welcome to come over to my house. we'll go for a drive while you reiterate all the reasons it wouldn't work and i shouldn't have done it. it'll be fun.

[TheSilentChamber]

Cars drive down the road, cars start, run, and operate at differnt rpm levels. Cars require percision.

Taiste cant be measured, bananas grow in a tree, get cut off the tree, and sit on a shelf. You cant measure the performance of a banana and compair how this banana will taiste comapired to another banana.

Obviously the lesson of the story is; never trust someoen who cant find produce on their own.

[Moppie]

psychopathicdude You gave some general info, and asked some general questions, mixed in with some details, looking for detailed answers.

In reply you received a variety of general and detailed opinions, which is exactly what Internet forums are great at.
I don't see what the problem is.