HELP!!!2002 Taurus SEL "dragging" stalling BADLY!!

[GALegal]

One more thing....brokenantimatter...I tested the Overdrive and did not notice much of a difference...it still stalled out.

[GALegal]

Latest...I tested the A/C/Heating system again....now the clicking noise I heard when turning it on and off...is happening anywhere from 5 to 8 times (sometimes longer) while the system is on...cars tries to rev up (go above the 1 on the rpm meter (tach???) then it clicks and rpms fall down...the clicking is rythmic/like a pattern

Will post scores later today.

Thanks...T

[shorod]

The clicking you are hearing is probably the A/C compressor clutch engaging and disengaging. If it is at a pretty quick rate, that would indicate your A/C system is low on refridgerant. When the A/C compressor kicks in, it is supposed to send a signal to the Idle Air Control (IAC) to speed up the engine to accomodate the increased engine load. I

You need to determine if your engine speed increases when the compressor clutch engages or disengages. This will help determine if your IAC is working properly. Watch the compressor clutch (belt driven) at the compressor pulley. When you hear a click, the outermost portion of the compressor pulley will either start to rotate or stop rotating.

When engaged (increased load on enging) the portion will be rotating. Is this when the engine speeds up or slows down?

-Rod

[GALegal]

Hi Rod...I will check what you wrote either tonight or first thing in the morning...I haven't counted the intervals between clicks but I can tell you this...as of this afternoon...the A/C is not working again...it's blowing hot air!!...Autozone employee said he saw no codes for the A/C and that it probably needs refrigerant (how easy is that to do myself???)...Thanks!

Ok...my codes from Autozone....Here we go:

P1131 - Lack of HO2S Switch - Sensor Indicates Lean

P1151 - Lack of H02S21 Switch - Sensor Indicates Lean

P0171 - The PCM has determined that during testing, the fuel system for
Bank 1 was too lean (Bank 1 identifies the location of cylinder #1.
While Bank 2 identifies the cylinders on the opposite Bank)

P0174 - The PCM has determined that during testing, the fuel system for
Bank 2 was too lean (Bank 1 identified the location of cylinder #1.
While Bank 2 identifies the cylinders on the opposite Bank)

P0300 and P0316 - Autozone employee said "I don't have these, they must be
with??? the Dealer"...He could not tell me what they
indicated.

Everything I typed was printed on the papers he gave me...I have no clue what they mean.

Also, the Autozone employee that tested my car said he thought it "just needs a Tune-up". He also mentioned a bad "coil" (something the spark plug wire connects to???)

Any help is appreciated...Thanks!

[Huney1]

10K not that bad for oil change but I'd get it done ASAP and hence forth try to limit it to 7500 miles if you have easy driving conditions and 5000 if it's city or dusty driving conditions. The suggested oil change intervals are in your manual.

"What's a Tune-up???" A technician hooks up a sophisticated computer and analyzes your vehicle and engine to insure everything is functioning OK and if not they make corrections and fix it to perform at maximum efficency.

We're dealing with a *whole bunch* of hypothetics here and what the technicians need is for you to post the codes so they can go to work and until they get them we're sort'a spittin' in the wind for distance.

[GALegal]

Hey Huney...yeah I knew everything was pure speculation without the codes...I think we were posting at the same time...I just got them today and just posted them...

Thanks for all your help!...

PS...the "what's a tune-up question was a joke...(but I am almost that ignorant when it comes to cars)...

[Huney1]

WHOOPS! My Bad. I didn't see the codes she posted.

[shorod]

The P0300 and P0316 codes are generic codes, not manufacturer-specific, so the Autozone book should have had them. This is another reason we usually suggest you get the actual codes and post them here (which you did) rather than take the word of the person at the parts store. P0300 means a random misfire was detected, but the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) was unable to determine which cylinder/cylinders is/are misfiring. The P0316 code means the misfire was detected within the first 1000 revolutions of the engine.

Possible causes of P0300:

• Camshaft position sensor (CMP)
• Low fuel: less than 1/8 tank
• Stuck open EGR valve
• Blocked EGR passages

Possible causes of P0316:

• Damaged CKP sensor
• Ignition system
• Fuel Injectors
• Running out of fuel
• Fuel Quality
• Base Engine
• Damaged PCM

A tune up including a fuel filter and adding a bottle of fuel injector cleaner to the fuel tank may be a good place to start.

-Rod

[GALegal]

Huney ..Thanks!

Rod...

You talked mostly about the last two codes...is your suggestion based on all the codes or just those two? I ask because I want to know if I need to keep searching for other things I may need to do based on the other codes too or...if you think the tune-up could possibly correct all the codes...OR...just do what you said ...see what happens...report it back here..and go from there

Also, what's a good price for a tune-up?

Is it something I could do if I put my mind to it? I used to work in a GM and a Ford plant (built Cadillac engines and water pumps @ GM and Rear Axles @ Ford)...I am somewhat inclined to know what some of these things are if I see a book or instructions and have the right tools...but,

is that feasible for me to even consider?

Can I do a tune-up in "sessions" so I can continue to use my car as I go?

Will my engine blow up if I keep driving it in the condition I have been describing?



I am sorry if I sound desparate...but I am...this is more than frustrating...not just to think about the $$ it may cost but when driving and stopping at lights...it's stressful having to worry about my car stalling out and having to restart it and wondering if the person behind me is aware or just going to start driving and hit me...All you Gentlemen/Ladies help is greatly appreciated...I know it's hard to convey emotions through the written word sometimes...but your help is meaning the world to me...If I trusted the system I would have just taken it to someone and asked them to fix it...I don't trust the system anymore...I mean...the dealer had it twice since 7/4/06 and they didn't get these codes???...that's hard to believe since the problem started a year ago...

I'll check back in the morning or tomorrow evening....Thanks again...T

[shorod]

I focused on those codes primarily because you didn't have a description for them, but in general, you start by troubleshooting the highest code number first, and that may fix some of the lower codes. Certainly, the possible causes of the P0316 and P0300 could cause the P017x codes. The P1xyz codes are manufacturer specific codes for Ford, and I can provide you with the troubleshooting steps for those as well.

Generally though, any of the codes you posted could be caused by components replaced as part of a tune up. If you haven't had a tune up performed in the last 30k miles or so, it won't be a waste of money.

I suspect that with a Haynes, Chilton, or Ford service manual for your car, and a fair assortment of tools, you could certainly perform the tune up yourself. Be sure as part of the process to replace the fuel filter and add a bottle of fuel injector cleaner to the fuel tank.

The rear three plugs and wires will probably be the most difficult part of the tune up.

If you have access to a fuel pressure guage, it might serve you well to check the fuel pressure once you have a new fuel filter installed.

As for doing the tune up in sessions, yes, it is possible. However, if you find a step that seems to remedy your current issues, many times people will stop there and not actually finish the job. That's just asking delaying the inevitable.

As for continuing to drive the car if there really is a lean condition, yes, it could cause extensive damage to your engine. There is a risk of it burning the valves, which would probably be worst case.

-Rod

[Huney1]

If the PCM is causing a problem that is part of the exaust/emission system and the PCM controls a whole lot of things to make the engine running efficently as possible. Not to lean and not to rich so as to introduce more pollution into the air. Here's the punch line; by Federal law emission system compontnts are warrantied for eight years or eighty thousand miles.

"I don't trust the system anymore...I mean...the dealer had it twice since 7/4/06 and they didn't get these codes???" Rod said code P0316 could indicate a damaged PCM and it is an important part of the "Emission System."
"The Federal Emissions Warranty guidelines are based on federal regulations and apply to vehicles in all 50 states. Vehicles are covered by two types of emissions control system warranty, "Emission Defect Warranty" and "Emissions Performance Warranty".

Don't take this as Gospel and let Rod or BrokenMatter confirm it, but I highly suspect your problem is really Fords problem and I'd have a serious pow-wow with the Ford dealer and if I got any guff my next step would be call Fords customer relations dept. I'm sure the Feds would help after you exhausted resources at the local level because if the Ford dealer is jerking you around the Feds will not take kindly to that at all. The reason Ford has to replace the PCM is because it must be programmed by a Ford factory computer because it is set up to make that particular engine run at peak efficency and use as little gas and put out the least exaust emissions/pollutants as it can.

Dig deep in that owners manual and see what it says about warranty because I recently had an issue with the PCM engine idling real rough and ours is an 03 with 40K miles and the Ford dealer told me they would replace the PCM anytime I was ready. I asked him about the 8 yrs or 80K mi PCM emission component warranty and he said that is correct. Another punch line; If it is the PCM it will not cost you one dime to get it repaired.

OH! In order for Ford to replace it they MUST diagnose it and be able to pull up the error codes indicating the PCM is bad and they will not take your word, (or mine), for it. Hence, I hope you didn't clear the error codes but if they did then the CEL should come on again shortly with the same codes.

[brokenantimatter]

on the lean bank codes

I would clear the codes out and maybe have a hard a reset it runs $55 last time I checked but I am seriously leaning towards EGR or MAF failure, it can cause all sorts of random fuck ups.

P1131 - Lack of HO2S Switch - Sensor Indicates Lean

• Fuel Injectors Malfunction
• Oxygen Sensor Failure
• Exhaust Leak
• EGR Failure
• MAF Failure

P1151 - Lack of H02S21 Switch - Sensor Indicates Lean

• Fuel Injectors Malfunction
• 0xygen Sensor Failure
• Exhaust Leak
• EGR Failure
• MAF Failure

P0171 - System Lean - Bank 1

• O2 Sensor Failure
• MAF Failure
• Fuel Injector Failure
• Exhaust Leak
• EGR Failure
• Fuel Regulator Failure

P0174 - System Lean - Bank 2

• O2 Sensor Failure
• MAF Failure
• Fuel Injector Failure
• Exhaust Leak
• EGR Failure
• Fuel Regulator Failure

P0300 - Multiple Ignition Failure

• O2 Sensor Failure
• MAF Failure
• Fuel Injector Failure
• EGR Failure
• PCM Failure
• Faulty Ignition System Componet

P0316 - Multiple Ignition Failure below 1000 rpms

• O2 Sensor Failure
• MAF Failure
• Fuel Injector Failure
• EGR Failure
• Fuel Regulator Failure
• PCM Failure
• Faulty Ignition System Componet

[shorod]

Pretty much an all inclusive list of potential issues causing your codes from the factory service manual is:

• Electrical:
  • Short to VPWR in harness or HO2S
  • Water in harness connector
  • Open/Shorted HO2S circuit
  • Corrosion or poor mating terminals and wiring
  • Damaged HO2S
  • Damaged PCM
• Fuel System:
  • Excessive fuel pressure
  • Leaking/contaminated fuel injectors
  • Leaking fuel pressure regulator
  • Low fuel pressure or running out of fuel
  • Vapor recovery system
• Induction System:
  • Air leaks after the MAF
  • Vacuum Leaks
  • PCV system
  • Improperly seated engine oil dipstick
• EGR System:
  • Leaking gasket
  • Stuck EGR valve
  • Leaking diaphragm or EVR
• Base Engine:
  • Oil overfill
  • Cam timing
  • Cylinder compression
  • Exhaust leaks before or near the HO2S(s)

Since you are getting meaningful and related diagnostic codes, I would not initially suspect the PCM as the fault. Go down the list above and check out the simple things first such as making sure you don't have vacuum leaks, the air intake hose is connected securely and properly, the MAF sensor is plugged in, the coolant temperature sensor is in spec, run a bottle of fuel injector cleaner through the system, replace the fuel filter, and check the fuel pressure at the rail both key on engine off and with the engine running, etc.

-Rod

[GALegal]

You all are the best! I need to digest all this information and do some reading on how to do the things Rod suggested. And Rod...on the clicking noise I hear when the A/C/Ventilation system is on...the part that's making the noise is a part that the belt is running on at the bottom...it's the smallest part in that whole belt assembly thingy...the clicking occurs when this piece on the side of that attempts to spin...I see bolts on the outside of it...it trys to spin, then clicks, then stops...and trys all over again....I was going to try to get a schematic of that part to get the name of it...but you may understand what it is from my description (if so then you are an automotive God or something )

brokenantimatter why clear the codes out? To have it read again and see if they turn up the same?

Huney thank you too...I read the Federal Emissions Warranty and I am wondering that if one of those parts are the issue, how hard would it be for me to argue for the free repair knowing I have let maintenance...shall we say..."slip" a little (or a lot depending on where your from...**sheesh**) At any rate, that (if I am reading it correctly) is one of the ways Manufacturers can get out of doing the repairs for free.

In the mean time I have to go pick my daughter up from MI this weekend (I am driving my other daughters car) so this one will be resting. It is so bad and stessing me out so much though (not to mention what Rod said about messing it up and the worse case scenario) that I am done driving it now until I get it totally fixed. It means extra driving for me or money to some rental place but better that now than a car note and a busted car to show for it.

I'll let you all know what I find out...and Thanks again for all your help.

T

[shorod]

The "clicking piece" you are referring to certainly sounds like the air conditioner (A/C) compressor clutch. When the compressor needs to run, the PCM commands the compressor field coil to energize. When energized, the field coil is an electro-magnet and pulls the clutch in to engage the compressor, locking the pulley to the compressor drive and hence spinning the compressor crankshaft.

As for the lean condition causing damage to the engine, it likely is not at a state where it would yet be likely to burn valves, but that is a possibility. Better safe than sorry though. In actuality, if you are faced with the option of renting a car, you would probably be better served to find an independent shop that comes recommended by friends and spend the money you would on a rental car paying the technician to diagnose and fix your car. Certainly you would not get the satisfaction of doing the repair yourself, and knowing what it really took to fix the issues, but it may save you money in the long run.

-Rod