'95 Grand Prix - car died, now won't start

[edbrycem]

since the belt is fairly simple to remove, I would try turning over by hand first, if u have the right size. That is worse case scenerio. if u cant turn it over,well.......u know. if u can, while u r under there then take out the starter. Yes if u have corroded wires u could have enuf connection to get power to the starter but not enuf to crank. to check for spark i would pull a plug out and crank it over and watch, but i dont foresee that being your problem though. It could be a bad connection at the starter too. Thats all i can think of off hand.

[richtazz]

a bad battery cable can allow enough current to let the solenoid pull the drive in (making the click noise) but not enough current to roll the starter over. You cannot check for spark until you get the engine to roll over, so at this point, your concern is to get the car to crank. You could even try to gently tap the starter with a hammer to see if the car will start. If it does, then the starter is bad. I seriously doubt the engine seized, unless it made some horrible noises before it quit and your daughter is afraid to tell you what happened.

[jessman1128]

Thanks again for the help...

Ok, here's the update...I took some time off yesterday and went back out there to the car.

Contrary to what I said last time, I decided to try cranking the engine manually first. Which brings me to my next question...should it crank fairly easily? Or does it take some serious pressure to get it to move? I didn't get it to move....but I wasn't putting extreme pressure on it either, because I forgot to bring something to block the wheels with, and come to find out the parking brake doesn't work. So I'm not sure if it's seized up....or if I just wasn't trying hard enough.

After that, I removed the air cleaner assembly to get batter access to the batter cables and starter. As far as I can tell, the battery cables are in perfectly fine condition. The starter is caked with a ton of grease and grime, but as best as I could tell without jacking the car up (yes, I forgot my jack and jack stands too...felt rather stupid) the starter connections appear to be okay.

I'm starting to think I may have to shell out some money to have it towed to a shop and have them check it out. I don't want to....but I'm not sure what else to do at this point. I may go back there with jack/jack stands on friday and see if i can get to the starter from underneath the car to take it off. I couldn't get access to the bolts from up above.

[edbrycem]

Originally Posted by jessman1128

Thanks again for the help...

Ok, here's the update...I took some time off yesterday and went back out there to the car.

Contrary to what I said last time, I decided to try cranking the engine manually first. Which brings me to my next question...should it crank fairly easily? Or does it take some serious pressure to get it to move? I didn't get it to move....but I wasn't putting extreme pressure on it either, because I forgot to bring something to block the wheels with, and come to find out the parking brake doesn't work. So I'm not sure if it's seized up....or if I just wasn't trying hard enough.

After that, I removed the air cleaner assembly to get batter access to the batter cables and starter. As far as I can tell, the battery cables are in perfectly fine condition. The starter is caked with a ton of grease and grime, but as best as I could tell without jacking the car up (yes, I forgot my jack and jack stands too...felt rather stupid) the starter connections appear to be okay.

I'm starting to think I may have to shell out some money to have it towed to a shop and have them check it out. I don't want to....but I'm not sure what else to do at this point. I may go back there with jack/jack stands on friday and see if i can get to the starter from underneath the car to take it off. I couldn't get access to the bolts from up above.

You shouldn't have to blow a nut turning it over but it would take a little umph. depending on the leverage u have example- I'm average size and i can turn a V8 350 over w/ 1/2 inch drive ratchet. you'll get a better idea how good the connection is at the starter after u jack it up. i hope the connection is bad as oppse to anything else. By the way, what size is the motor?

[jessman1128]

It's a V6 3.1L (3100)

[richtazz]

Before taking the starter off in a parking lot, try gently tapping it. If it has a bad spot on the armature, tapping it will move the armature just enough to get it off the bad spot, and the car might start. Then you can get it home and go through it more thoroughly. If the engine was seized, the starter would make a loud clunk, not just a click, as the drive hits the flywheel but it wont turn. When working on cars, especially away from home in an inconvenient place, always use the K.I.S.S. principle (Keep It Simple Stupid). I'm not calling you stupid by the way, stupid as in smack yourself in the forehead because you replaced a $500 part only to find it was a loose connection. The corrosion I spoke of before may not be visible without taking the cables off the battery.

[jessman1128]

Update:
The car may be getting towed to a junkyard soon, in which case I won't be able to work on it any more. But, I wanted to explain what we tried and found out yesterday and see what you guys think.

I read somewhere that the positive terminal on the starter should be getting 12 volts with the car completely off, and when you try to start the car the voltage on the starter positive terminal should stay above 9.5-10 volts. If it drops lower than that when trying to start it the battery isn't supplying enough power, either because of a bad battery or a bad connection. So that was one of the first things we checked yesterday. It is getting 12 volts with everything off, but when attempting to start it it drops down to around 6.5 volts. So I thought maybe there was a problem with the cables, even though they look perfectly fine. So we took the old cables off, bought new ones and hooked them up.....and the problem was even worse....now the ignition switch wasn't even working...no clicking or anything. Thought maybe we blew something in the process of switching the cables...checked all the fuses, everything looked fine. Took the new cables off, hooked the old cables back up....back to the original problem....so I don't know if the new cables were defective or what....but I'm definitely returning them.

We tried turning the engine again too. Put a 1/2 inch ratchet on it, then a 18-inch iron pipe on the ratchet. We got the bolt to turn a little bit....probably 1/4 to 1/2 a turn.....but.....the wheel wasn't turning with it. Is that a good indication the engine is seized? Or that the bolt wasn't tightened down to proper specs when it was put on there?

Somehow it completely slipped my mind to try tapping the starter with a hammer. D'oh!

Any thoughts? Is the information I found about measuring the voltage to the starter correct? Indicative of a bad connection somewhere? Or maybe a bad battery and AutoZone was wrong when they said the battery was fine? Or is the engine likely seized since the wheel wasn't turning with the bolt?

One other related question....sorry for the long post.....When replacing the battery cables is it necessary to get a positive cable that has the auxiliary post like the original cable has? Because the one I bought didn't and I was wondering if that was why the problem was worse with the new cables.

[BlueGT02]

6.5 v at the battery while cranking may be a battery issue. I would think that the cables couldnt cause this situation and it would definetly be the battery but i've been wrong on issues like this before.

[richtazz]

That voltage drop is way too high. Your starter needs a minimum 10.5v to turn over. That has to be either a bad battery or cable. The positive cable has a branch that goes to the "jump post" near the drivers side strut tower( the other goes directly to the starter solenoid). If the generic cable you bought doesn't have this extra branch, that is why the ignition went out, as the ignition switch is powered through the jump post.