92 buick park ave runs when it wants

[ebez1]

It was the orginal water pump . We talked to the owner we bought it from. He had a notebook with dates and milage for all maintence that had been done to it since he owned it, and he was the orginal owner! He even had the bill of sale and sticker in the notebook as well. Very detailed with all the repairs. He gave us the notbook and we added in all our repairs. Probally the most complete history on a car I have ever seen. The car is at 152,000 miles.

[HotZ28]

ebez1,
Just curious, did you replace the ICM & ECM?, I noticed in post 6, that you replaced the ICM and in post 14 you said you replaced the ECM also.

I have seen several water pumps with press on impellers fail, like the one you had. About five years year’s ago, we found one not pumping and it was later at night, (all parts stores closed) and we went for the JB Weld trick on the shaft and impeller. It worked, and that pump is still on the car today!! (Over 40K miles)


Glad to here you are getting the problems resolved. Unfortunately, a car with that many miles, will offer many more challenges for you in the future.
One thing about an older Buick, they will keep you active!!

[ebez1]

Yuppers had to replace them both! Impressed by the longevity of the epoxy fix! The expoxy trick, I was eyeballing some marine epoxy I had there cause it was late, but not to late to get to a store. The ICM got so hot that the internal wire connectors sunk into the insulating gel and shorted out. Fried that . LOL. So then we replaced that (Had the new one tested also)((Recommended highly)) as it took 3 of them before one tested clear. Moved on to the ECM, when hooking up our code reader it started getting codes then the CEL stayed on(solid light) and would not go out, give any codes, nothing. Well a few scraped knuckles later that was done. Installed. Ran great. Then started to get hot again,fans were working but no flow, then we figured it out. Felt a bit dumb but a good learning experience. Thus the solution. Funny thing is in our family lol we have 2 PA 95, 92. Also Delta 88, 3 Le Sabre's 03, 00, 97. So much of what we learn is well applied. By taking care of my vehicles I have done well for mileage out of vechiles I have owned. 324,00 out of a Grand Am 91 Quad 4 engine , 4 door. And still traded that 2 years ago for 2200 on trade in.

[feyxuk]

Originally Posted by HotZ28

92-95 3.8L VIN L CODES

15 Coolant temperature sensor signal indicates a temperature colder than -36° F for at least 4 seconds after the engine had been running for 2 seconds.
16 Charging system voltage was either below 9 volts or above 17 volts for 10 seconds.
21 TPS voltage was above 0.8 volts for 5 seconds when engine was running and air flow was less than 15 gm/sec, or the TPS voltage was over 4.8 volts at any time.

You need to check your alt output!

What's about those codes?
I just had my 94 PA Ultra in a shop to check out why the SES light is coming on. (Advance only reads 95 and later.) They read 3 and 4 digit numbers like PO131, PO171, PO1406. They charged me $500.- for an EGR and O2 sensor but the SES still comes on. Are you and I talking about the same diagnostic or obd codes?

[HotZ28]

With the conversion to OBD11 starting in late 94, you will have some 94's with an OBD1 PCM and a 16 pin OBD11 ALDC connector. Some would read OBD1 codes (commonly referred to as OBD1.5) and others would read OBD11 codes. All vehicles after 96 are OBDII, and require a scanner to access them. Look under the hood at the sticker for emmisions and you should see that it is OBD11. The OBD1 & OBD11 codes are listed in the links below;
service engine soon
Diagnostic Trouble Codes
By the way, if I paid 500 bucks to get the codes cleared and using some parts that might not have solved the problem, I would be back at the shop asking questions about why I still have codes. They need to see if the codes are the same as before.

[ebez1]

Originally Posted by feyxuk

What's about those codes?
I just had my 94 PA Ultra in a shop to check out why the SES light is coming on. (Advance only reads 95 and later.) They read 3 and 4 digit numbers like PO131, PO171, PO1406. They charged me $500.- for an EGR and O2 sensor but the SES still comes on. Are you and I talking about the same diagnostic or obd codes?

Code PO131 = Upstream heated O2 Sensor circuit low voltage (bank 1, sensor 1)
Code PO171 = System Adaptive fuel too lean
Code PO1406 = Sorry, can not find that code in my books
The top two codes are actually 5-digit codes,PO is included as digits in the code. Dont know of 6-digit codes.
Ouch you paid a price for that! The O2 sensor is about $20 at O'reilly'sfor a Master Pro brand Takes about 15 mins to swap out. I dont see why the EGR valve was replaced. What was the car doing? Sounds? Temp? Running condition?

[HotZ28]

Are you sure that you had a P1406, or could it have been P1404?
Listed below are the 1404 & 1406 codes. It looks like GM only uses the 1404.
P1404 EGR Closed Position Performance (GM)
P1406 Heated Catalyst Internal Control Module Checksum/ROM Error (BMW)
P1406 DPFE Downstream Hose Off Or Plugged (Ford, Mazda)

[feyxuk]

Originally Posted by HotZ28

With the conversion to OBD11 starting in late 94, you will have some 94's with an OBD1 PCM and a 16 pin OBD11 ALDC connector. Some would read OBD1 codes (commonly referred to as OBD1.5) and others would read OBD11 codes. All vehicles after 96 are OBDII, and require a scanner to access them. Look under the hood at the sticker for emmisions and you should see that it is OBD11. The OBD1 & OBD11 codes are listed in the links below;
service engine soon
Diagnostic Trouble Codes
By the way, if I paid 500 bucks to get the codes cleared and using some parts that might not have solved the problem, I would be back at the shop asking questions about why I still have codes. They need to see if the codes are the same as before.

I just came back from the shop, watched them hook up a scanner under the dash. Again PO131, PO171 and a new PO123. PO1406 (EGR) was gone.
These codes were located in system section "memory", the "current" section
was empty even though I drove up with the SES light on.
So can I assume that I have a OBD11 PCM? There is no emissions sticker anywhere, perhaps because we don't do emission tests?
And what about not reading a "current" error when the SES is on? -Was on before I turned the ignition off!
The specialists scratched their heads -and other body parts- and promised to call me after some research.

[feyxuk]

Originally Posted by ebez1

Code PO131 = Upstream heated O2 Sensor circuit low voltage (bank 1, sensor 1)
Code PO171 = System Adaptive fuel too lean
Code PO1406 = Sorry, can not find that code in my books
The top two codes are actually 5-digit codes,PO is included as digits in the code. Dont know of 6-digit codes.
Ouch you paid a price for that! The O2 sensor is about $20 at O'reilly'sfor a Master Pro brand Takes about 15 mins to swap out. I dont see why the EGR valve was replaced. What was the car doing? Sounds? Temp? Running condition?

Actually, none of the above.
I don't know if it is related, but I had them swap the charger with my standby so I could rebuild the original.
Some when after that the trouble started, the SES light came on, that's all.
I always had some knocking when accelerating under load and since the EGR
was never changed under my ownership I aggreed to replace it. They told me
1406, since the EGR is replaced now and the code is gone I can not confirm that. I found out later that the EGR sells for about $150.-.
There is no obvious drivability problem as far as I can tell. Had no chance yet to test accelleration under load.

[HotZ28]

If the PCM is spitting out PO codes, it is OBD11 and the PCM should be located under the hood. Did the shop clear all the codes again? What is the problem with the car other than a SES light? Skipping, surging, poor idle, or poor performance? You may have a PCM going bad!

P0123 = Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch A Circuit High Input

[feyxuk]

Originally Posted by HotZ28

If the PCM is spitting out PO codes, it is OBD11 and the PCM should be located under the hood. Did the shop clear all the codes again? What is the problem with the car other than a SES light? Skipping, surging, poor idle, or poor performance? You may have a PCM going bad!

P0123 = Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch A Circuit High Input

Yes, they cleared the memory, and on my way home the light came on again.
There is no obvious problem other than accelleration knocking (occasionally), but I had that for years, no SES light.
The supercharger was swapped recently (seal, coupler) so I could rebuild it.

I need to share this with you:
About 3 years agao I had the PA in a dealership for alignment.
When it was ready to pick up, they were not able to start the engine and concluded that the "computer" was bad. They replaced it, all was ok and I got a bill for alignment and computer, $600.- if I remember right. I tried to argue that the car was running fine when I brought it in and would not pay for a computer, but they refused to hand the keys over. At this time I had a repair insurance and they finally coverd it.

I am assuming that "computer" and PCM are the same thing?

[HotZ28]

Originally Posted by feyxuk

Yes, they cleared the memory, and on my way home the light came on again.
There is no obvious problem other than accelleration knocking (occasionally), but I had that for years, no SES light.
The supercharger was swapped recently (seal, coupler) so I could rebuild it.

I need to share this with you:
About 3 years agao I had the PA in a dealership for alignment.
When it was ready to pick up, they were not able to start the engine and concluded that the "computer" was bad. They replaced it, all was ok and I got a bill for alignment and computer, $600.- if I remember right. I tried to argue that the car was running fine when I brought it in and would not pay for a computer, but they refused to hand the keys over. At this time I had a repair insurance and they finally coverd it.

I am assuming that "computer" and PCM are the same thing?

Yes the "computer" and PCM is the same thing. I hate to suggest this once again; however, your shop needs to diagnose the problem using the codes. If they don't have any active codes and the SES light is still on, then it could be a bad PCM. I assume that the shop has a live scanner that can monitor all sensors input and output. You had a code that indicated a lean condition on one bank (3cylinders) and they should be able to find the reason for that! You said that you have a pinging in the engine. Do you run premium fuel in the car (93 octane)?

[feyxuk]

Originally Posted by HotZ28

Yes the "computer" and PCM is the same thing. I hate to suggest this once again; however, your shop needs to diagnose the problem using the codes. If they don't have any active codes and the SES light is still on, then it could be a bad PCM. I assume that the shop has a live scanner that can monitor all sensors input and output. You had a code that indicated a lean condition on one bank (3cylinders) and they should be able to find the reason for that! You said that you have a pinging in the engine. Do you run premium fuel in the car (93 octane)?

Yes, the good stuff, always Ultra for the Ultra.
I once tried to have that pinging fixed, but the previously mensioned Dealership (a female associate) told me that there is really nothing they can do except changing out the engine. That was at about 95k miles. For obvious reasons I decided not to go with this option.
Since then and after browsing the forums I would assume that the knock sensor should prevent pinging in the first place and less than 93 octane should have no consequence other than less power.

But.... I wait what they come up with regarding the SES light. Perhaps a smoking gun overlooked for the last 5 years.

[HotZ28]

The knock sensor should pick up the ping and retard the timing. The amount of timing retard you would have is built into the “retard timing table” in the PCM. Usually it would range from 2-10 deg of retard. I was just wondering if the pinging started sometime soon after the dealer replaced the PCM? Not all PCM’s have the same timing tables and retard tables. The PCM would have to be specifically for the year and model car. The Ultra with the SC, would have a different fuel and timing curve, than the NA 3800 and would require a specific PCM program for that application. You should not have pinging under any conditions if the PCM program and knock sensor are correct and operational. Yes, lower octane fuel would cause a loss of power and some surging and bucking. The reason you would have a loss of power would be due to the timing retard when the knock sensor picks up a ping.

[feyxuk]

Originally Posted by HotZ28

The knock sensor should pick up the ping and retard the timing. The amount of timing retard you would have is built into the “retard timing table” in the PCM. Usually it would range from 2-10 deg of retard. I was just wondering if the pinging started sometime soon after the dealer replaced the PCM? Not all PCM’s have the same timing tables and retard tables. The PCM would have to be specifically for the year and model car. The Ultra with the SC, would have a different fuel and timing curve, than the NA 3800 and would require a specific PCM program for that application. You should not have pinging under any conditions if the PCM program and knock sensor are correct and operational. Yes, lower octane fuel would cause a loss of power and some surging and bucking. The reason you would have a loss of power would be due to the timing retard when the knock sensor picks up a ping.

I do not recall if it was soon after, but I know for sure that I did not have (perhaps just did not notice) a pinging before.
How would I figure out if I have the right PCM?