Is it really that hard...

[mason_RsX]

Originally Posted by Chris V

If you read my post, I talked about EXACTLY that sort of tribal behavior, and that it's primitive human nature. The problem is that even people likeyou who see it, are incapab;le of uing intelligence to rise above it. In st4ead of saying "can't we grwo up and use some intelligence" you defend that sort of hateful, insulting behavior as some sort of virtue, and it's NOT.

If you want to call competition primitive, and unintelligent then go for it, but its incredibly hypocritical of you to call anybody tirbal or primitive if you have ever partaken in any sort of competition because you have, at one time or another, expressed the desire to have your opponent fail, and fail hard...

Get off your pedestal, get off the fence, and don't call me unintelligent because I root for a side, and therefore begrudge their enemy...Just because I like A more than B doesn't mean im not as smart or as sophisticated as you...

Originally Posted by Chris V

Yes, in fact, there IS something wrong with HATING another mechanical device simply because it isn't the one you chose. That's the POINT of the thread! the primitive need to HAVE to choose sides. Us vs them. If you can hate it, you ARE being ignorant. Period. The fact that you can't see it proves just how insidious that ignorance is. You are incapable of using your intelligence to remove bias from passing judgement. If you used intelligence, you would be abe to appreciate the differences, and the virutes of each, and WHY others might like them. You can't see that they are both cars, that they both can do just about any job the other can do, just maybe in a slightly differnt way. That's the point.

I don't hate any make, model, brand, country of origin, and can find something to appreciate regardless of type of car, where it's from, or what era. It's not that hard. And learning more about cars in general, and I'm not talking about how they work to fix them, but how they came to be, the reasoning and people behind them, and how they are viewed worldwide, will make it harder to hate on any car. Thus, learning DOES equate into not hating.

The way you throw the word ignorant around really speaks to how you choose to make an argument, like your aristotle and the uninformed masses just doesnt understand how much of a genius you are.......Explain to me how me hating the Yankees shows my lack of eduaction or knowledge? I know how talented the team is, I know the way they play, I know of the nature of their sports, and their rivalries...but that doesnt change the fact that I really really don't like the team.........thus by your theory, my greater knowledge of the Yankees should cause me to dislike them less than you, but thats just not the case

And again I will say I don't hate any car company or type, Im really just interested in cars for the cars not necessarily the companies...

but how will knowing how a car is viewed worldwide make you hate the car any less?? how will knowing how a car is viewed worldwide hate the car any more? knowledge is platonic, it doesnt necessarily mean you view things as A or B, it just means you know them...there is no inherint characteristic in knowledge that allows you to form 1 emotion, or believe in only 1 way...

[Chris V]

Originally Posted by mason_RsX

If you want to call competition primitive, and unintelligent then go for it, but its incredibly hypocritical of you to call anybody tirbal or primitive if you have ever partaken in any sort of competition because you have, at one time or another, expressed the desire to have your opponent fail, and fail hard...

When did I call "competition" primitive and unintelligent? I can compete with my friend without thinking he's a hated enemy. Competition has nothing to do with believing in the hatred of the other. I can compete in autocross with other cars and not be an insulting ass and call the other cars crap. I can appreciate the other cars and drivers. Is that clear enough for you?

There's a difference between wanting to win, and hating/dislikeing that which isn't part of your community. Sad that you think you have to be hateful and insulting to be competetive.

Get off your pedestal, get off the fence, and don't call me unintelligent because I root for a side, and therefore begrudge their enemy...Just because I like A more than B doesn't mean im not as smart or as sophisticated as you...

*sigh*

I already SAID that. I said, it's good to have favorites. It's bad to hate everything else to justify having those favorites. No one ever said anything about liking one more than another being bad. If you had any sort of reading comprehension, you'd see that. Grow up, friend.

The way you throw the word ignorant around really speaks to how you choose to make an argument, like your aristotle and the uninformed masses just doesnt understand how much of a genius you are.......Explain to me how me hating the Yankees shows my lack of eduaction or knowledge?

They are people on a sports team. The relative merit or not of where they play or who they play for is unimportant. Most of the players have been on other teams and will play on other teams later. Hating them because they are not from your favorite location is, to put it bluntly, stupid. It shows a lack of knowledge of the bigger picture, and lack of knowledge is, by definition, ignorant. Hate itself is ignorant, by defintion.

The fact that you, as a human, can defend WANTING to be hateful as a valuable goal is what's amazing. Why should being hateful BE a valuable goal to you?

I know how talented the team is, I know the way they play, I know of the nature of their sports, and their rivalries...but that doesnt change the fact that I really really don't like the team.........thus by your theory, my greater knowledge of the Yankees should cause me to dislike them less than you, but thats just not the case.

Of course, because you can't use your intellect to rise above your animal emotions about something as relatively unimportant in life as a pro sports team.

And again I will say I don't hate any car company or type, Im really just interested in cars for the cars not necessarily the companies...

but how will knowing how a car is viewed worldwide make you hate the car any less??

Simple, as a mechanical device, designed to do a job, you should know how the people actually using it on a regular basis view it to get a good idea of whether it's a good design or not. Understanding why something is liked by the users helps you [/i]appreciate[/i] the device. It doesn't necesarily mean you will suddenly desire it. It means you will be able to appreciate it and judge it in context. Understand the word "appreciate" and you will see what I mean.

Besides, as a mechanical device, how do you "hate" one over another, even if you have favorites? Hate is a strong emotion. Going out of your way to insult a car or it's owners is an intentional act. unless that person or that particular car has harmed you, why WOULD you hate it, or want to? It doesn't have to be your favorite, or something you even take note of. But hating it, and ACTING on that hate, is a psychosis, even if that action is coming on a message board where the owners of a car like that might be, and insulting it or stating that you "hate" it.

Again I ask, why would that be a valuable goal to strive for? In all your rantings agains being told you shouldn't "hate" something, you have yet to state why you SHOULD, and why it's something you think people should TRY to act like. I at least gave some direction on why it's not a valuable goal.

I ask why is it so hard to appreciate things, why should you hate on things, and you get mad for not being allowed to hate. Why do you WANT to hate? Why is that important in your life? Why is it more important than making the effort NOT to hate?

knowledge is platonic, it doesnt necessarily mean you view things as A or B, it just means you know them...there is no inherint characteristic in knowledge that allows you to form 1 emotion, or believe in only 1 way...

Ever hear the phrase, "the more you know?" Most racism is based on ignorance, most of it intentional. Knowledge in that sense allows you to understand that the "others" are just people like you. Enough knowledge and enough exposure to the "other" and that knowledge will make you not feel hatred as a generality.

Cars are similar. Knowing more about cars in general will let you understand how similar they all are, and that hating one that is actually quite similar to ones you like is patently silly. Ricers tend to hate american muscle. Musclecar gearheads tend to hate small imports. People that now a lot about both kinds of cars understand and appreciate that both have their place and both can be good. They can still have favorites, but they don't hate any of their less than favorite cars and don't insult them or the people that own them.

It's always been that way, and always will. Open your mind, let go of the hate.

Because you cannot justify it being something to strive for. I can justify being open minded and appreciative as the way to make a better person. Can you show me how hate and closed mindedness (not merely specialization or having a favorite) makes you a better person?

[Chris V]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

you are constantly mixing up discussions of fact and discussions of opinion into one big mess.

No, I'm using the discussion of thinking that assertation of a conclusion reached is merley opinion.

IF we were asking for advice on how to prep and paint a car, then there are known facts in the equation.

It's still the discussioin of the conclusion reached (this is a good way to paint prep a car) based on the facts.

IF we were instead talking about cars that we may or may not like/dislike, then that is based on opinions formed by personal experience for which there is no fact (in the examples of personal opinions) other than the facts that we know because of those personal experiences.

my facts based on my experiences may not be the same as the facts based on yours and yet they are both facts.

Conclusions reached and assertations made are different from mere "opinion." owning one car that was a POS is a fact. Asserting that they all are POS due to the experience of that one car is NOT a "fact." How hard is that to get?

In my previous example, I used the person using the "fact" of owning a slow Rabbit L coming to the conclusion that all 4 cyl cars are slow.

The FACT is that his experience is that 4 cyl Rabbit was slow. Since he did not experience all 4 cyl cars, then you can't use that as having different FACTS. And then the CONCLUSION reached, that all 4 cyl cars are slow, is an assertaion of fact. And that fact is wrong. Stating that the conclusion and assertation is merly opinion doesn't make it not an assertation of fact. At that point, it is no different than stating that prepping a car for paint by rubbing it with armor all is a good idea.

You seem to be constantly mistaking assertations of fact as merely opinion gleaned from "different facts," and that's not quite factual, itself.

and once again, anyone can have a valid reason for hating a car and that reason need not be based on facts. Let's not even go into the possiblity that his reasons may be because of a fact with the particular car taht he experienced.

If he extends that reason, from that particular car, to all of them, without any facts that all of them would cause that experience, then the assertation that it IS a fact is mistaken.

Would I be "factual" in making the assertation that all blacks are dirty theives who can't hold jobs and don't bathe, simply because I had a roomate that was black, never bathed, never held a job for more than a week, and stole from the rest of the roommates? The experiences would be factual, but would the CONCLUSION be? And if I treated a black person I met based on that conclusion, would I be right, wrong, or simply a racist f*ck? I mean, my EXPERIENCE would be FACTUAL, wouldn't it? Would my actions be excuseable, and should that person I met think highly of me for merely stating my own opinion?

Is that the goal you would have us strive for?

[drunken monkey]

so by your rationale, you are not qualified to judge or comment on their "hate" because you don't know ALL reasons for their individual hate.

and i said it before, stop offering up straw man arguments.

if i don't like a certain car because it failed me and disappointed me, that dislike is valid. yes? no?

[0tobe60in10minutes]

Originally Posted by Chris V

... to actually appreciate all cars, even if you have favorites that you prefer? Why does every teenager find it so important to hate on things that aren't their current favorites? I'm starting to wonder if it's related to the ability to actually think.

*I* have favorite cars. But I can appreciate all kinds of cars, from imports to domestics, from new to old, from fast to slow. Stock and custom (and even art cars), even if the customizing isn't something I would do myself.


Why do people have to hate on things that aren't their favorites in order to justify HAVING those favorites? Why is that expression of opinion so important? In all my years on automotive forums I run across all sorts of variations on this behavior. And invariably the people that know the most about cars, tend to exhibit this behavior the least. And invariably, the people that argue loudest that it's their right to act this way, know the absolute least.



I don't know. I've just never found it that hard to be able to enjoy the rush of a torquey big block pushing you off the line in a roar of thunder, and turn around and enjoy the rip of a small engine winding up and flinging you forward. I have no problem driving classic American muscle and modern Japanese sport coupes. I can drive a slow lowrider as easily as a full race Sports GT. A showcar built for artistic expression is as valid as a race car built for pure speed. I enjoy the feel of a good manual shifter, and the speed and power use of a good automatic. FWD, AWD, RWD doesn't matter, as long as the car is doing the job that's asked of it. A couple tenths of a second difference in accelleration figures isn't enough to crown one car the ultimate and it's competitor an utter pile of crap. And a few seconds difference in accelleration isn't enough to make me not want to drive a car on the street. And who else owns a car isn't enough of an excuse to drive or not drive an example of that car.

But so many people I talk to lately, especially young or inexperienced people (i.e. they've only driven one kind of car their whole life), seem completely and utterly incapable of seeing that all of them are mass produced mechanical devices, and that while their favorite might be perfect for them, other choices are not POS simply because they are not their first choice. Whether it's import drivers hating "low tech domestics," Domestic drivers hating "rice rockets" or Euro drivers thinking anything else is a low class POS, it's all the end result of the same thing.

So why is it so prevalent? Tribal behavior?

This is the point I've made on may sites. "My family is better than their family. My school is better than their school. My team is better than their team. My community is better than their community. My state or nation is better, etc." Even people who don't want to be affiliated with a club or community or society are trying to fit in with others who are also trying not to fit in with that club, community or society.

Once a favorite is picked, championing that favorite seems to mean that you HAVE to loudly proclaim how much everything else sucks. The irony is that my favorite is striving for knowledge, and the goal of NOT striving for knowledge sucks.

Yes, lamenting that every teenager coming onto forums acts that way was hyperbole, exaggeration for effect (though after the recent spate of noobs on most forums I'm on, the percentage that doesn't act that way is frighteningly small). And there are enough adults that act the same way, due to not being confronted with larger experience before. I don't want anyone to think I'm getting down on teenagers or younger people. And it's an intersting question to wonder if my generation would have acted this way had there been the internet and anonymous international forums available to us. I mean, things are said on forums that would never have been broached in person were you to join up with a community of experienced people in your chosen hobby or industry.

But it is arguable that the level of incivility even in person has risen in recent years, as has been the rise of the opinion being more important than anything. And really, who's to blame? Parents? Politicians setting a bad example? The instantaneousness of news and a glut of information (not all of which is valid)?

I don't know. What I do know is I'm tired of spending time to research information, back it up with decades of experience, and then have people who don't have much if any experience argue that their opinions on it are factual, and that they should be allowed to hate on and denigrate other people's cars because it's their right to do so. "I hate rice burners. They all need to die." "I hate pushrod engines." "I hate Fords." "I hate Dodges." "I hate Hondas." "I hate VWs" "I hate trucks" "I hate older cars." "I hate newer cars." "I hate cheap cars." "I hate chrome wheels, and if you put them on your car, you're stupid and I will insult you." "I hate lowered cars." "I hate drifting." "I hate NASCAR" "I hate automatics." "I hate" "I hate" "I hate"

..........................................

Yes, part of this forum is "cars I hate." But too often, that hate is a poorly thought out, and frankly ignorant statement of opinion based on a near total lack of knowledge. Why is that such a valuable goal to strive for? If you're going to dislike something, at least have the decency to hae a clear, solid reason that allows you to dislike it and also not instantly be insulting to those that DO like it. Because quite frankly, people will like the things you don't, and others may dislike things that are your favorites. the simple solution is to buy what you like and don't insult things that arn't your favorite. Best yet, strive to learn waht you can abuot your chosen field of interest and learn how not to hate in the first place.

dude!!!! i wrote the exact same paragraph in a bulletin on the myspace.com, and NO one responded. people are always bitching about "rice" and domestics, etc. its true though, if you love cars, you will respect them ALL, no matter you like them or not, you will still share a respect for the history and presence of any car, no matter a ford pinto or an enzo.