New guy joining the ranks

[cooltc2004]

I totally disagree with the statement "Pontiac Engines are better then Chevy Engines". I think thats total bullshit, and I also disagree with the statement that Chevy gave up on performance way before Pontiac did. If you didnt know, the reason performace was cut back was because of the EPA restrictions set in force in about 1971. Before 1971, Chevy's engine was far supirior to pontiacs engine in performace. Chevy never gave up on performance, even after 1971, they just didnt have the technology to meet the EPA standards and get alot of performace.

What engine do you think is in all of GMs cars today? Its the same engine through out (the 5.7 LT1 in the Firebird was not different to the 5.7 LT1 in the Camaro) and they are Chevy Motors, not Pontiac, Not Buick.

/edit: And dont get me wrong, I love Chevys, Pontiacs, Buicks, and all the cars that fall under the GM of today, but if I had to choose a motor to run, I'd surely pick the Chevy Motor.

[88camaroproject]

^ damn streight...

[JOHNNY MAC]

Thanks Boon67 and Volkerc.. the website was much easier than the car, hehe.

I don't know of any refurb DVD's out there, maybe we should make one. I photographed, labeled and bagged every item I removed and also kept a journal of notes for the order of disassembly. When I started reassembly, it was then I realized what a lousy job I did. You can't take too many pics or too many notes!

Good Luck,

Johnny Mac
http://my67.net

[bonn67]

thanks guys. Looks like this is a good site to hang out at. Lots of folks responding. Seems like you guys have been around so I will be asking lots of questions as I start my new hobby.

mrpbody, I just bought that book today at Barnes and Noble (it was the only Pontiac book they had). Real interesting.

I will be careful when I am looking to buy. Thanks for all the advice. I have also been checking out some of the Pontiac Performance Engine places on the web. Quit a few out there. Which ones are the good ones?

I would still love to hook up with a local club in Northern Jersey, if you know of any, let me know.

I got lots of reading to do over the next few months (hopefully not years) before I buy.

Also pick up a copy of this months Pontiac Enthusiast. Looks like a good mag.

Looks like I just have to decide what I want from the car. Show, racing,driving, etc...

I am 95% sure I will not be racing. I would want to run it at the track just to see the time. But I will be weekend driving it and maybe in a local car show or two. They just look awsome.

[volkerc]

Originally Posted by cooltc2004

I totally disagree with the statement "Pontiac Engines are better then Chevy Engines". I think thats total bullshit, and I also disagree with the statement that Chevy gave up on performance way before Pontiac did. If you didnt know, the reason performace was cut back was because of the EPA restrictions set in force in about 1971. Before 1971, Chevy's engine was far supirior to pontiacs engine in performace. Chevy never gave up on performance, even after 1971, they just didnt have the technology to meet the EPA standards and get alot of performace.

What engine do you think is in all of GMs cars today? Its the same engine through out (the 5.7 LT1 in the Firebird was not different to the 5.7 LT1 in the Camaro) and they are Chevy Motors, not Pontiac, Not Buick.

/edit: And dont get me wrong, I love Chevys, Pontiacs, Buicks, and all the cars that fall under the GM of today, but if I had to choose a motor to run, I'd surely pick the Chevy Motor.

Pontiac, in its Firebirds were the last until 1976 who still produced the 455 engine while the Camaros and Mustangs already dropped to grocery getters. A Pontiac without a Pontiac engine is no Pontiac. Just because Chevy and GM are dropping corporate engines into every freaking GM vehicle doesn't mean they are better. Read the story in the link. The Chevy design is mediocre at best. And besides after 81, Firebirds and Trans AMs should not have been allowed to carry the name. Between 82 and 92 GM ruined the Pontiac line. And because GM was making one stupid decision after the other they are now facing bankruptcy, a shame. And the 5.7 l engine they are using now, is just a cheap to produce mill that has been around for years and thats why they are using it. Well built Pontiacs will blow every chevy engine of the road. Mickey Thompson used 4 blown Pontiac engines in his Challenger I. How come he did not use Chevys?

besides you gave your self the answer as I quote you:
"they just didnt have the technology to meet the EPA standards and get a lot of performace"

What is that saying about an engine(?), you can't meet emissions and you don't have the technology to either meet the standards or get performance.Laughable.
Pontiac met emissions with their 455 in 1976!!!

Just because millions of people eat at McDonalds doesn't make the food good!

[cooltc2004]

Yes, but their 455 was producing close to 200 hp. Thats not impressive for a big block. And when I said what you quoted me on: "they just didnt have the technology to meet the EPA standards and get a lot of performace" I was refering to ALL cars during that era, not just Chevy.

Now please tell me your not comparing a "well built pontiac" to a stock chevy, because to be fair, they both have to be "well built". And if you put a Well Built Pontiac in competition with a Well Built Chevy, the Chevy will win every time, hands down.

I hope that your not taking that website as for the truth, I think the guy didnt like chevys for a reason or two, and decided to bash them. Everyone is allowed to like an engine better, some like Mopar better then Chevy, some like Ford better then Chevy or Mopar (completly nutso), and your allowed to like Pontiac better then Chevy (hell my best friends dad likes Buick motors better then anything), but when it comes to performace, Chevy has the biggest aftermarket, and have the most potential for horsepower and torque.

Just for your information, since you brought up Micky T, Jay Leno, who is a big time car collector and car lover, said his favorite engine is the Chevy Motor.

/edit: Im not sure exactly the numbers that Pontiac was putting out in their Firebird in 1969, so maybe you could tell me (to lazy to do research), but the 1969 Camaro SS 396, when the engine was blueprinted (Meaning bring the motor to exact factory specs) (no motor came from the factory "blueprinted") would put out CLOSE to 600HP, and thats stock with everything it came with (and I think it came iwth 4 mufflers). The 396 was rated at lower RPMs for insurance reasons, thats why you hear "375 HP" when you hear about the 396ci BBC.

/edit#2: I just read your edit, and heres my response: Chevy met emisions too, but NONE of the car companies were producing the power that they use to do. For heavens sakes, 200hp out of a 455ci BBP? Come on.

[volkerc]

Originally Posted by cooltc2004

Yes, but their 455 was producing close to 200 hp. Thats not impressive for a big block. And when I said what you quoted me on: "they just didnt have the technology to meet the EPA standards and get a lot of performace" I was refering to ALL cars during that era, not just Chevy.

Now please tell me your not comparing a "well built pontiac" to a stock chevy, because to be fair, they both have to be "well built". And if you put a Well Built Pontiac in competition with a Well Built Chevy, the Chevy will win every time, hands down.

I hope that your not taking that website as for the truth, I think the guy didnt like chevys for a reason or two, and decided to bash them. Everyone is allowed to like an engine better, some like Mopar better then Chevy, some like Ford better then Chevy or Mopar (completly nutso), and your allowed to like Pontiac better then Chevy (hell my best friends dad likes Buick motors better then anything), but when it comes to performace, Chevy has the biggest aftermarket, and have the most potential for horsepower and torque.

Just for your information, since you brought up Micky T, Jay Leno, who is a big time car collector and car lover, said his favorite engine is the Chevy Motor.

/edit: Im not sure exactly the numbers that Pontiac was putting out in their Firebird in 1969, so maybe you could tell me (to lazy to do research), but the 1969 Camaro SS 396, when the engine was blueprinted (Meaning bring the motor to exact factory specs) (no motor came from the factory "blueprinted") would put out CLOSE to 600HP, and thats stock with everything it came with (and I think it came iwth 4 mufflers). The 396 was rated at lower RPMs for insurance reasons, thats why you hear "375 HP" when you hear about the 396ci BBC.

/edit#2: I just read your edit, and heres my response: Chevy met emisions too, but NONE of the car companies were producing the power that they use to do. For heavens sakes, 200hp out of a 455ci BBP? Come on.

600 HP out of a stock 69 SS Camaro, give me some of what you are smoking!!!!!
You are referring to Jay Leno!? A friggin guy that has money coming out of his ears and behind, and because he likes Chevy's it is the ultimate engine? AHAHAHA, I'm still cracking up hours after I read all this nonsense. Of course compression was lowered on the 76 455 to meet emissions and as a result the hp dropped. And lets not forget the hp ratings and how they were measured changed in the 70's.
You should read more and open your eyes and you will find out what outstanding stuff is being produced for Pontiac engines and their enthusiasts. 600 hp out of a stock engine ahahaha, i just can't stop laughing.
And besides the link is just from ONE person that put it in writing how mediocre the design is. Everytime you guys want to change a manifold all sorts of gunk falls right down in the engine, what a superior design!
And back to the Leno deal, he said it is his favorite engine, that means it is just a popular engine, not a good one. Popularity is a whole different issue, has nothing to do with performance ! How many chevy engines do you find in a top fuel dragster?

[JOHNNY MAC]

this is great,.... the good old rivalry that made America what it is today...

where is one of them Ford guys when you really need them (sorry Mopar, no offense).

Johnny Mac
my67.net

[cooltc2004]

Since your choosing to become disrespectful, this will be my last post towards you in this matter. First of all, a stock 396ci BBC of 1969 produced to the tune of 500HP, I appologize for the typo. A stock 426ci Hemi produced close to 550HP Blueprinted.

Compression was reduced starting in 1971, and by about 1973 killed most high powered engines.

I mainly referenced Jay Leno because thats what he recently said, and the first popular person that you might know of that came to mind. You referenced Micky T's, ever heard of Gelner? He operates one of the biggest high performace engine shops this side of the country. Last time I talked to him he delt in Hemis and Chevys, nothing else.

If you want to know the truth, the Pontiac motor was an all out slug, ask any racer. Please tell me you dont think Top Fuel Dragsters use Pontiac motors! Oh no, they use Keith Black Hemis, and produce about 7000HP. Thats more horsepower out of one cylinder then an entire Nascar engine.

Now if you want to respond, please grow up and quit the childish cracks.

[volkerc]

Originally Posted by cooltc2004

Since your choosing to become disrespectful, this will be my last post towards you in this matter. First of all, a stock 396ci BBC of 1969 produced to the tune of 500HP, I appologize for the typo. A stock 426ci Hemi produced close to 550HP Blueprinted.

Compression was reduced starting in 1971, and by about 1973 killed most high powered engines.

I mainly referenced Jay Leno because thats what he recently said, and the first popular person that you might know of that came to mind. You referenced Micky T's, ever heard of Gelner? He operates one of the biggest high performace engine shops this side of the country. Last time I talked to him he delt in Hemis and Chevys, nothing else.

If you want to know the truth, the Pontiac motor was an all out slug, ask any racer. Please tell me you dont think Top Fuel Dragsters use Pontiac motors! Oh no, they use Keith Black Hemis, and produce about 7000HP. Thats more horsepower out of one cylinder then an entire Nascar engine.

Now if you want to respond, please grow up and quit the childish cracks.

Grow up yourself! Show me one factory literature that shows your mentioned horsepower rating, oh you can't? That's right because there is none! 600 hp 500 hp, you don't even know the exact number!
You probably can't even explain what blueprinting an engine means.What lift and duration do you think that cam needs to produce your mentioned horsepower? Definetely not stock, and your stock heads won't cut that either!

And of course Top Fuel class is not running any Pontiacs, and for sure they are not racing any chevys, you can't even read and you are putting words into my mouth that I never said.
And your tuner is just dealing with chevys because everybody wants to drive a chevy, still does not make them good, just popular! Where we are back at McDonalds, just because everybody eats it doesn't mean its good food.

As far as performance parts are concerned, there are a few companies out there already that are producing brand new Pontiac blocks, including all out aluminum Pontiac Blocks, yes Pontiac, not Chevy. In the last year and a half at least 4 new aluminum heads have been produced from ram air to now even d-port heads.
Ask any racer my beh.... You probably only asked Chevy guys anyways.
I'd rather walk before I drive a Chevy or a Chevy powered car or a 82-92 bird.
And I'm still laughing out loud!

[cooltc2004]

You need to read the entire post before you respond, I said that I made a typo, if your going to go as low as throwing a typo in my face, why dont you goto the Honda boards and hang out there.

Do you know anyone who owns a 1969 Camaro? 1970 Charger? 1969 Firebird? Any of the old school cars? I recon not, because anyone who owns one can varify. My father has a 1969 Camaro SS, and before he did any modifications to the engine, he blueprinted the engine (correct the timing, etc) and got her dynoed, it was about 600HP, I think a tad over. I also own a 1974 Firebird, it has a Pontiac 350 in it. I have to admit, after 10 years of not running she started right up. Your making it sound like I have something against Pontiac Motors, I dont, I just dont think they are better then Chevy Motors.

And what are you talking about "My tuner"? I dont own any tuners, the only way youd see me driving one of those things is if I was headed to the nearest cliff.

They have been making aftermarket blocks for Chevy for YEARS. I remember being told that Pontiac, Buick, and another company all made aftermarket heads, and guess for what block? The Big Block Chevy. Of course Chevy came out with their own version and it out performed any of their heads.

What Im taking from this conversation is that your not a real car guy, you just like Pontiac motors because either his father or someone related swore by them, and wont change their views. And its a shame that you wont drive a 3rd gen bird, because they are one hell of a ride, and about when GM was starting to get power out of their V8s again.

The argument about which motor is better: Chevy or Pontiac is neverending.

/edit:

I actually found out that my origional number was correct.

So here are some numbers for you:
A stock 396ci BBC in 1969 produced:
375hp @ 5800RPMS
498HP @ 6500RPMS

A Blueprinted 396ci BBC in 1969 produced:
600-650HP @6500RPMS

Blueprinting adds about 100-150HP.

If your going to comment on anything said on this post, do some reseach first.

[volkerc]

Originally Posted by cooltc2004

You need to read the entire post before you respond, I said that I made a typo, if your going to go as low as throwing a typo in my face, why dont you goto the Honda boards and hang out there.

Do you know anyone who owns a 1969 Camaro? 1970 Charger? 1969 Firebird? Any of the old school cars? I recon not, because anyone who owns one can varify. My father has a 1969 Camaro SS, and before he did any modifications to the engine, he blueprinted the engine (correct the timing, etc) and got her dynoed, it was about 600HP, I think a tad over. I also own a 1974 Firebird, it has a Pontiac 350 in it. I have to admit, after 10 years of not running she started right up. Your making it sound like I have something against Pontiac Motors, I dont, I just dont think they are better then Chevy Motors.

And what are you talking about "My tuner"? I dont own any tuners, the only way youd see me driving one of those things is if I was headed to the nearest cliff.

They have been making aftermarket blocks for Chevy for YEARS. I remember being told that Pontiac, Buick, and another company all made aftermarket heads, and guess for what block? The Big Block Chevy. Of course Chevy came out with their own version and it out performed any of their heads.

What Im taking from this conversation is that your not a real car guy, you just like Pontiac motors because either his father or someone related swore by them, and wont change their views. And its a shame that you wont drive a 3rd gen bird, because they are one hell of a ride, and about when GM was starting to get power out of their V8s again.

The argument about which motor is better: Chevy or Pontiac is neverending.

/edit:

I actually found out that my origional number was correct.

So here are some numbers for you:
A stock 396ci BBC in 1969 produced:
375hp @ 5800RPMS
498HP @ 6500RPMS

A Blueprinted 396ci BBC in 1969 produced:
600-650HP @6500RPMS

Blueprinting adds about 100-150HP.

If your going to comment on anything said on this post, do some reseach first.

First off, you didn't want to respond anymore, so i guess your word means diddly squad. You need to do your research first. Stay in la la land as long as you want to. Your numbers are incorrect and you know that. Just by you typing them here doesn't mean they are correct.
3rd generation birds are the last cars in the firebird line that have anything to do with performance. One of the number one reasons Pontiac and the Firebirds lost their reputation and sales is the 3rd gen Bird. And where do you come from assuming I'm not a car guy, you are a dreamer that is ignorant and has no clue what he is talking about. You consider changing the timing blueprinting!? HAHAHA, and you think you get 240 more hp out of a stock engine using stock parts, man get real!
Besides you still have not answered what cam, respectively lift and duration you'll need to achieve 600 hp.
And your typo?! YXou are back to your 600 hp again from the 500. MR. Flip Flop...

[cooltc2004]

You obviously know nothing about what your talking about. My numbers are correct, and I'd give them a +-10HP to for safety.

Choosing to respond is my choice, you have nothing to say about that. If I want to respond, because your telling this guy who asked the question inaccurate information, I can do so.

And I never said that blueprinting a motor is ONLY changing timing, that was my one example. I honestly think you dont know what blueprinting a motor is, I dont think you've ever worked on a Chevy motor, and I stand by my origional comment about you.

And after talking with someone who actually owns a Camaro with a 396, they informed me that in fact after blueprinting the horsepower rating was 600, thats why I told you what I did. Right now your nit picking to try and stay alive in this conversation.

And if you do the math: 600 - 498 = 102HP
650 - 498 = 152HP

Not 240HP.

What CAM you ask? Stock cam that came in the 396ci/375hp motor of 1969. I dont have the specs off hand, but if you plan on whining about it I can get it.

Im surprized noone else has commented on this issue, or how your acting. Please, if you guys are reading this, dont be scared, comment away!

[volkerc]

that's right comment on it.
and yes you are right i don't build chevys, what for? they are garbage. i built pontiacs.
you still are only providing YOUR numbers, you can't back nothing up! the hp rating for the engine you quote is 360 hp so that is a 240 hp difference. do your math yourself.
and yes i want to know the specs of the cam you are referring to, and yes i want your explanation of what blueprinting is, go ahead make my day. so far you are producing nothing but "hot air". you are referencing a guy that own one, yeah right, I want factory proof! what part don't you understand? All you do is repeating yourself, how lame and boring is that!

[cooltc2004]

Originally Posted by volkerc

that's right comment on it.
and yes you are right i don't build chevys, what for? they are garbage. i built pontiacs.
you still are only providing YOUR numbers, you can't back nothing up! the hp rating for the engine you quote is 360 hp so that is a 240 hp difference. do your math yourself.
and yes i want to know the specs of the cam you are referring to, and yes i want your explanation of what blueprinting is, go ahead make my day. so far you are producing nothing but "hot air". you are referencing a guy that own one, yeah right, I want factory proof! what part don't you understand? All you do is repeating yourself, how lame and boring is that!

I cant back it up? Its common knowledge that blueprinting a motor gives you more horsepower, its not my fault if you have no clue, sorry, Im not here to educate you. 375HP is Factory rating @ 5800RPMs, and the same engine produces 498HP @ 6500RPMS. Go find a dyno sheet, I dont care, I know its true, and I dont have to prove anything to you.

Blueprinting a motor means you completly disassemble a motor, and build it from scratch, according to factory settings. The factory has a + and a - limit they can go to, if you get an extream, say a + cylinder and a - piston, then your going to have a huge gap, cutting your horsepower.

Maybe you dont understand that all companies rated their engines at a lower RPM for insurance reasons, your not going to get factory proof, but proof of a car enthusiest! If you cant accept that, your not one yourself!