2002 Windstar Fuel Pressure Problem

[jchapin]

Originally Posted by 12Ounce

OK. The PCM is supposed to give you a one second start-up period, after which it will maintain the fuel pump if a CKP (CranKshaft Position) sensor signal is received. (Per the Powertrain Control/Emissions Diagnosis Manual.)

Since your car is running OK otherwise, I believe that somehow your PCM is losing this CKP info internally. In other words, the CKP info is used to maintain ignition and fire the injectors ... but lost for the fuel pump drive.

I believe it would be safe enough to just remove the fuel pump relay and insert a jumper to replace the relay contacts.

Also, just for the heck of it ... you might look over the connector to the crankshaft sensor ... easier said than done, as its not easy to reach.

And inspect the harness connection to the PCM. Use some of that lubricant here.

Also, roll back the harness, from the PCM, and make sure the harness has not been damaged against the ac tubing or something else on the firewall. (Mine had.)

I inspected the wiring and harness but both look clean and I don't see any damage from other firewall items.

In order to rule out the PCM as a problem, a friend suggested that I take it out and hook up a ground to the pin that connects to the ground side of the fuel pump relay. I did this and when I touched this wire to ground the relay would activate every time but the fuel pump only activated some of the time. This makes me think that the pump or wiring to it may be the problem.

Then I went back to the test where I had the fuel pump relay on four posts and grounded the switch to the negative of the battery (previously this had made the pump run every time). This time the relay worked every time but the pump only worked part of the time.

I also went back to the safety solenoid that shuts off power to the pump in case of an accident and checked the voltage there. When the relay is activated and I measured 12 volts there.

Finally, I tried shorting out the 12v across the relay socket to bypass the relay and I still was hit or miss on getting the pump to start. Therefore I think that my problem is the pump.

Does it make sense that if the pump motor were failing that it would be difficult to start however once it was running that it would probably run until you shut off the van? Do you agree that my next step is to remove the pump and see if that is the problem?

[12Ounce]

Agreed! I think you're zeroing in now.

BTW, I just last week changed the fuel pump/sender in my Winnie. The input screen was too small, I think. Someday I'm gonna try to find a larger one .... for use "next time".

[~manuel~]

Originally Posted by jchapin

I inspected the wiring and harness but both look clean and I don't see any damage from other firewall items.

In order to rule out the PCM as a problem, a friend suggested that I take it out and hook up a ground to the pin that connects to the ground side of the fuel pump relay. I did this and when I touched this wire to ground the relay would activate every time but the fuel pump only activated some of the time. This makes me think that the pump or wiring to it may be the problem.

Then I went back to the test where I had the fuel pump relay on four posts and grounded the switch to the negative of the battery (previously this had made the pump run every time). This time the relay worked every time but the pump only worked part of the time.

I also went back to the safety solenoid that shuts off power to the pump in case of an accident and checked the voltage there. When the relay is activated and I measured 12 volts there.

Finally, I tried shorting out the 12v across the relay socket to bypass the relay and I still was hit or miss on getting the pump to start. Therefore I think that my problem is the pump.

Does it make sense that if the pump motor were failing that it would be difficult to start however once it was running that it would probably run until you shut off the van? Do you agree that my next step is to remove the pump and see if that is the problem?

usually when the fuel pump check valve is failing, it will cause hard starting, but run ok once the engine starts.

[12Ounce]

I agree. But the problem may be something in or around the tank.

A break in the harness, contaminated tank and plugged inlet screen, etc, etc. But once in there I wouldn't pass up the chance to change out the pump ... they are only gonna last so long anyway.

[jchapin]

Originally Posted by 12Ounce

I agree. But the problem may be something in or around the tank.

A break in the harness, contaminated tank and plugged inlet screen, etc, etc. But once in there I wouldn't pass up the chance to change out the pump ... they are only gonna last so long anyway.

I pulled the tank out yesterday and changed out the pump and so far the van runs fine. I flushed the tank but it had very little debris in it. I did find one "part" floating in the tank that concerned me...it's about the size of a half-dollar. It looks like a small filter. Originally I thought it was an O-ring but it has a thin filter material stretched across it.

It doesn't look like it came off of the pump. Maybe it was accidentally dropped in the tank during ititial production of the van. Or maybe when we put the small hose in to pull gas out of the tank we knocked it loose from the inlet where the gas comes in. When I put my hand inside the tank I could feel the one-way valve at the inlet where the gas pours in but it didn't feel like there was any place for a filter.

I also checked the old pump after pulling it out and it doesn't start when you put 12V across it so that was reassuring that I did in fact find the problem.

[LeSabre97mint]

Originally Posted by jchapin

I pulled the tank out yesterday and changed out the pump and so far the van runs fine. I flushed the tank but it had very little debris in it. I did find one "part" floating in the tank that concerned me...it's about the size of a half-dollar. It looks like a small filter. Originally I thought it was an O-ring but it has a thin filter material stretched across it.

It doesn't look like it came off of the pump. Maybe it was accidentally dropped in the tank during ititial production of the van. Or maybe when we put the small hose in to pull gas out of the tank we knocked it loose from the inlet where the gas comes in. When I put my hand inside the tank I could feel the one-way valve at the inlet where the gas pours in but it didn't feel like there was any place for a filter.

I also checked the old pump after pulling it out and it doesn't start when you put 12V across it so that was reassuring that I did in fact find the problem.

JCH


Good job sticking with it and finding trouble! I've been reading this as things progressed. How many miles were on the pump before it failed. Have you taken the pump apart to look at the brushes/com? I bet they're all black and require cleaning. However, the pump housing is a sealed unit. Right?

Regards

Dan

[12Ounce]

Congrats on "nailing it"!

That piece you describe I think I've seen on the nozzle assembly of some plastic portable gas containers.

As some other posters have suggested, we all should never let the tank gas level fall below 1/4 full ... for the benefit of the pump.

[jchapin]

Originally Posted by LeSabre97mint

JCH


Good job sticking with it and finding trouble! I've been reading this as things progressed. How many miles were on the pump before it failed. Have you taken the pump apart to look at the brushes/com? I bet they're all black and require cleaning. However, the pump housing is a sealed unit. Right?

Regards

Dan

I bought the van used with about 38,000 miles and the pump appeared to be the original one. Currently the van has about 82,000 miles on it. I have not taken the pump apart...I did keep it to dissassemble later but right now it is not a high priority. The pump housing is a sealed unit.

[daveck2]

Quick question, I have an 01 Windstar and it has been hard to start for about 3 weeks. Basically I have to crank on it for about 5-10 sec before it fires up. Today it wouldn't start period. After charging my run down battery (from all the cranking) I check for presense of fuel pressure at the rail. It squirted out a strong but short stream after the car had set for 1.5 hours.

I tapped the key without cranking to motor to see if the pump was kicking on as described so well below. It was kicking on for the 2-3 sec. So I tapped it key about 4 more times and then tried to crank it. It fired right up.

Do you guys think the pump is just getting weak and that is why it cranked after I "primed" the system?

I have about 9/10 of a tank and hate to have to drop it if It is necessary.

Thanks in advance for any advise

01 Windstop Failures:
Intake bolts:FAIL $150
Heater door flapper: FAIL $55
Both brake light sockets: FAIL $117
Coolant Pipe under intake: FAIL $58
Coolant Pipe to firewall: FAIL $68
Coil Pack: FAIL $58
Power Steering fluid: FAIL $30
Power Door lock: FAIL $74
Power Window Motor: FAIL $78

[12Ounce]

First, replace with new relays ... those relays that feed the PCM and the fuel pump. These relays should be identified in the glovebox owners manual.

[daveck2]

Well, I replaced the pump, relay, and fuel filter. The car cranks and starts but still gave problems when it was colder than 40 degrees. I did some thinking and figured the ECM was faked into thinking the motor wasn't turning over, and that's why there were no codes.

Well the first sensor in line that informs the ECM that the motor is turning in the Crank sensor (surprisingly only $20 at Autozone).

I replaced the sensor yesterday since it was really cold out and it wouldn't start, (This way I would know right away if the new part worked). The car started up in less than a second. (before, even when it was warm out, It would take at least 2-3 seconds before the car would start.)

I guess the sensor was affected by the cold, but I still don't know why it would eventually crank up after about 10 min of cranking.

01 Windstop Failures:

Crank Sensor: Intermittent FAIL $20
Fuel pump: $200 (Unnecessary)
Intake bolts:FAIL $150
Heater door flapper: FAIL $55
Both brake light sockets: FAIL $117
Coolant Pipe under intake: FAIL $58
Coolant Pipe to firewall: FAIL $68
Coil Pack: FAIL $58
Power Steering fluid: FAIL $30
Power Door lock: FAIL $74
Power Window Motor: FAIL $78

[12Ounce]

Did you replace both the pump and the PCM relays?

[tomj76]

Old thread... diagnosis complete (did not read to the end)
New thread... I think you need to make sure that the hard start is a fuel pressure problem or something else. Check fuel pressure while starting it.

Also, perform the fuel system diagnostic guide available from the Autozone website.