Heaven and Hell

[AlmostStock]

Lots of people who "died and came back" say they experience similar things. Is it so surprising that even though our heart has stopped pumping our brain can still function at some level for a short while? Since many of these people can return to normal brain activity (or close to) I would say no.

That being said I think that some people may "be in heaven" in their mind, at least for a short while. Hours or days later may be a different story but maybe it will seem like eternity. If your brain was instantly blown to bits then this couldn't happen.

[Muscletang]

Originally Posted by blakscorpion21

i just cant accept the fact that a child rapist/murderer could get into heaven just by asking for forgiveness while a good person will go to hell for not beleiving in something they find hard to beleive.

Well you start to ask questions like if that person was really saved. If they truely were though and they fell away from God and became a rapist/murderer then they'd still get into Heaven.

The good person on the other hand could help every single old lady across the street and it still isn't enough to get into Heaven, sorry.

It may not seem right but in the end everybody will be judged for what they did. Even the rapist who got into Heaven will be punished for what they did somehow.

Originally Posted by blakscorpion21

what kind of justice is that?

I don't find it hard to understand or get. It says in the Bible that you're saved by your faith, not by works.

Originally Posted by blakscorpion21

and you cant say ur religion is right and others are wrong cause they all have the sasme basis.

I don't think all religions are the same. They all go there own way in one way or another.

We all have the choice though to pick what we want to believe and how we believe it

[ct91rs]

Originally Posted by Muscletang

Well you start to ask questions like if that person was really saved. If they truely were though and they fell away from God and became a rapist/murderer then they'd still get into Heaven.

That is absolutely NOT true. You are doing people a great disservice by making such a statement. A cursory study of the teachings of the New Testament would explain this. I cannot mention all the passages which relate this idea, but here are two with particular relavence:

Hebrews 6:4-6 "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentence, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

It is a common misconception, with no Biblical backing, that salvation is achieved simply by accepting Jesus Christ as Lord. If it has no impact on your life, and the way you choose to live it, that faith is not real, and will not save you. You are correct that we are saved by grace and not by works. But reading the book of James you will find that faith without works is dead. It will not lead you too salvation.

Matthew 7:13-23 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it...
every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord', will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!"

I don't mean to jump on you, but it truely pains me to hear another believer spread these misconceptions.

[blakscorpion21]

i know what ur saying im just mentioning that if the murderer commited theese crimes and had a total change of heart while on death row, and he truly acccepted jesus in his heart. he would live in eternal happiness while the person who did nothing wrong will suffer forever. why would any loving father let their children destroy their own future? if this is the kind of love and justice your god shows i do not want to know him.

[Twizted_3KGT]

well "if" is the reason you should find out for yourself, instead of taking a book written by men's word for it.

[Pavlo]

Originally Posted by Twizted_3KGT

...a book written by men's word for it.

That is one of the main reasond That I do not believe in Bible, and many things about Christianity. There is no original "Bibile" and all bible consists of are things written by people, and rewritten many times. Each time mostlikely somthing is thrown out or in.
Twizted_3KGT the Idead of pursuing the answer is somewhat logical but I think I will just continue being atheist, and maybe on the side try to find out the answer.
Thank you for the replies.

[Mistro]

Well i Might aswell add my point in.

I believe that although religions go different ways, their paths, like the many rivers eventiually go to the same sea, god, the almighty.

As for accepting Jesus, I'm not a christian but I believe that in the phrase, "you'll be saved by accepting Jesus" etc. I think that its really you'll be saved if you follow his ways, ie: be a good person and personify and try to be what jesus was etc.

Its just that religions teach this "love thy neighbour" thing in different ways.

As for when you die, check out
http://www.near-death.com/

or more specifically
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research06.html

Its a good site with a lot of compilations of the various things.



But on the flip side of that, one could argue that even though those people were "brain dead" so to speak, the last image they think of will be all the things that they believe will happen when they die. This will get imprinted on their brains as it shuts down and when they "reawake" this is what is "remembered"

However, that dosn't account for many NDE's being quite similar even in places like say remote villages in india where things like "go towards the light" wouln't (i think) be an influence at all but still the people that have NDE's there supposedly see a light etc.


also some good info on "the void" or whatever its refered to in your beliefs. (hell, the punishment place in hinduism.. the name slips me... etc.)

[dirtydx]

its all too complicated.. i invent my own beliefs, just like man did for the bible.


near-death is bullshite too... people have their ups and downs. people who are about to die are in one shitty, stressfull situation. when you finally pass out and your nervous system tries to equalize it out... blam-o, you're instantly looking into the eyes of god.

i've went through some bad trips, switching from getting burned up and having my body ripped apart, to sitting on top of the highest mountain talking to jesus. BOTH were enjoyable and painfull, and neither one meant to be experienced continuously.

going to heaven and seeing all the chicks as hot and beatiful, and all the guys with football player bodies... is one sick, demented, shallow dream.



i believe in reincarnation, but i don't believe we are judged as good or bad, right or wrong... then reincarnated as follows.

you can imagine to yourself that poor/ugly/stupid people have a shitty life.. but there are a trillion different factors that combine to make up a person's day, and I guarantee that everyone has their moments of fulfillment, or else they wouldn't be here.

needless to say, our lives are mere specks in the book of time. The earth is estimated to be 45,000,000,000 years old, and your worried what will happen within 80?


if you wanna make a leap of faith then stop believing what everyone else has to say. rather than throwing a veil of ignorance over everything you're afraid of experiencing. Think for yourself.

[GForce957]

^ they dont even think the universe is 45 billion let alone earth. More like 4.6 billion

[blakscorpion21]

yea the universe is only about 15 by our best guesses. maybe a little more.

[dirtydx]

prove it.


anyways, what difference is 45 billion vs. 4.5 billion in comparison to the human lifespan? none, no comparison. All materials are essentially recycled... it's just a matter of how long an object is capable of staying together.

[dirtydx]

i don't have a problem with religion. it makes people happy and go about their days...

but it isn't without its problems. when my grampa passed away, I overheard my gramma worrying about how he was sent to hell. that was really sick to me, what a way for her to spend the rest of her life. not to mention her being alone in heaven without her life partner. doesn't that defeat the purpose of heaven?

[ct91rs]

Originally Posted by dirtydx

prove it.

Are you serious? Perhaps you should become a bit more informed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_universe

Originally Posted by dirtydx

anyways, what difference is 45 billion vs. 4.5 billion in comparison to the human lifespan? none, no comparison. All materials are essentially recycled... it's just a matter of how long an object is capable of staying together.

Entropy?

The sun will begin to die in about 5 billion years, it will not "stay" together for that long. As for all materials being recycled, prior to the Big Bang, where might you propose this matter came from?

Regarding the reincarnation, you must then believe there is some sort of self or sole we possess, which is distinct from the human mind/body. If that is the case, I would have to imagine that God created it, and if God created it, might He have some specific ideas (morales) He wishes to impart in us?

I am a strong Christian, but I have not always been this way. Thinking for myself is what led me to Christ.

[dirtydx]

Originally Posted by ct91rs

Are you serious? Perhaps you should become a bit more informed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_universe

say you were born 4,000 years ago(or even 10 years ago), somewhere in Africa. Would your beliefs have included these mathematical theories then? if the theories weren't available then, what greater relevance would they apply to a life experience now?

I looked at the theories, low and behold, the mechanics mean zip to me. Although, if i really wanted to understand, there are ways. But until then I am simply taking someone elses word for it.

Originally Posted by ct91rs

The sun will begin to die in about 5 billion years, it will not "stay" together for that long. As for all materials being recycled, prior to the Big Bang, where might you propose this matter came from?

someone told me the big bang was just a rumor. I was told life actually began about 30 years ago, when the "matrix" was first booted up, we are actually aliens, playing a game of complicated chess. some people might even believe that.

Originally Posted by ct91rs

Regarding the reincarnation, you must then believe there is some sort of self or sole we possess, which is distinct from the human mind/body. If that is the case, I would have to imagine that God created it, and if God created it, might He have some specific ideas (morales) He wishes to impart in us?

I don't believe that any one being has more "power" over another. I think that every part goes together as a whole. such as, smart people can't be defined without the presence of stupidity. Everyone's experience has their plusses and minuses, the perfect human is only an idea in everyones head, makes them move forward with hope.

most people look at celebrities like they have the perfect existence... but celebrities have no public freedom, and live with the fact that every move they make is monitored and judged by millions. Like Tom Cruise's fist pump, couch jump... what a freakin' idiot.

at the same time I look at a chickadee, as it quickly flies between the rungs of a porch railing... and I think, even though its lifespan is short, maybe it's perception of time is different than ours.

[dirtydx]

as for having a soul, i don't know. there are positive and negatives that every human designs and live by. you might think you've mastered throwing out all your negatives, and be living as a happy person.. but the way people then percieve you might make them angry.

like this religous aunt I have, she thinks lately I've pulled myself together, found what makes me happy, closer to god.. something like that.. now what I think of, was that she thought of me as a fuck-up before, bitch.


so you might be reincarnated as a worm, a frog, a panda, a deer, a mosquito, the stupid kid down the street.... but their existences really aren't any better or worse than your own, just a juggling of characteristics. you are a part of life, and that is the gift.

time n' space goes on forever, so whats 1 month as a worm?