GM may file chapter 11 banckruptcy

[BlenderWizard]

I actually spoke to my father on the disappearance of one of the Big 3. Chrylser/Dodge are relatively safe for now with Daimler. GM is EXTREMELY diversified (did you know that your refrigerator may actually be a GM product? That is if it is a Frigidaire, but that's only one example). Ford, however, while having MANY auto brands, is relatively undiversified outside of the automotive world... which leads me to believe they will be the ones we start seeing less of. But, even though I generally detest all things Ford, that would be sad for me. It's sort of like... without dark, there is no light... Without Ford, Chevy (GM) may lose its meaning. If every day is a sunny day, what's a sunny day? If every car's a chevy, what's a chevy? Evil is good...

[White Lightening]

Originally Posted by BlenderWizard

I actually spoke to my father on the disappearance of one of the Big 3. Chrylser/Dodge are relatively safe for now with Daimler. GM is EXTREMELY diversified (did you know that your refrigerator may actually be a GM product? That is if it is a Frigidaire, but that's only one example). Ford, however, while having MANY auto brands, is relatively undiversified outside of the automotive world... which leads me to believe they will be the ones we start seeing less of. But, even though I generally detest all things Ford, that would be sad for me. It's sort of like... without dark, there is no light... Without Ford, Chevy (GM) may lose its meaning. If every day is a sunny day, what's a sunny day? If every car's a chevy, what's a chevy? Evil is good...

Actually, I think GM is more likely to file Chapter 11 than is Ford. Why? Well if you start from the top - GM's net profit margin is more negative than is Ford. Next - GM is working on selling the only item in its conglomerate that actually makes money - yep you guessed it - GM is currently trying to sell GMAC financing. In its last annual report - all of the profit side for the company - came from GMAC - and this is the thing they want to now sell. Next on the agenda - GM's pension liability is in much worse shape than is Ford's. Next - While Ford has some profitable divisions - like Jaguar etc. GM's car divisions are all needing updating or in dire shape. SAAB? Needs money and its independence back - SAAB used to be an excellent line till GM bought them. Buick? Well GM spent a pile of money (big money) developing the La Crosse (named after our town by the way And how much did they spend on the GTO development program for Pontiac or the G6 development? Piles. They gave away how many hundreds G6's on Opah Winfrey's show - for free - somethign they had no money to support such an activity. Now the rumor is that Pontiac or Buick or both may be shelved, dropped, and dismissed as entire car lines. And Chevy/GMC may see dropped product lines as well (the idea of a minivan and GM just don't seem to ever make a logical pair that produces robust sales.

Even the truck division of Chevy/GMC has seen major problems. How bad? Well - their 2008 is now getting "rushed to market" as a 2006/2007 instead - because they need it soooooo bad.

It doesn't mean our current Chevy trucks aren't good and aren't popular - it means that Chevy has done a lousy job managing - I mean lousy in really really bad. And they've been even worse at negotiating with the unions. Just imagine - by end of 2006 - over a 3 year length of time GM will have eliminated more than 25% of their entire work force (and that is without dropping lines or selling companies). If it wasn't for Kerk Kerkorian rumors and stock ownership - GM would today be at an all time stock market low. Single handledly he's been holding the market share price up. And think why. He'd put it into Chapter 11 immediately if he bought it - dump the pension liability on the government - negotiate the $300 billion of debt into ownership - sell off parts of the company to others - then come out of Chapter 11 with a streamlined company with little liability and very reduced union requirements.

Small business owners like myself - could never run our businesses like GM has the last 15 years - we'd be in the poor house or out to pasture. GM had the lead - had the opportunities - had the products and the technology - and gave up that lead on all sides. Just one small example - a tiny example of a big problem is my truck - the 2004 VHO 2wd. After I owned it a couple months - I emailed some 17 different truck and car publications about its features and abilities - why? because GM hadn't done it. Know what? I got several responses back from these publications (reporters and publishers alike) saying they had never heard of or seen such a unit and they were going to contact GM. GM desperately needed an affordable sport performance truck the last few years. And when they had one that offered many benefits at an affordable price - they didn't even tell anybody about it (nor could you find it on their own website). Just dumb. Even GM's own customer support website - repeatedly told me that my truck didn't exist (I still have about 6 of those emails).

I'm not saying the VHO 2wd was the same as the Ford Lightening or the Dodge SRT 10. But it COULD HAVE BEEN GM's sport truck candidate - with a pile of benefit features and at a great price point and handling quality - and the truck was never even considered or mentioned to the publications. So what happened - publications and media did comparisons of the Lightening and the SVT and didn't even have a GM entry - not once - not twice - but multiple times. And the VHO 2wd offered a more feature rich benefit group of price to performance than did the pricey AWD SS.

Last thing and then I'm off the soap box. There is alot of extra pressure regarding the 15th of October of 2005 for Chapter 11 filings. Why? On October 16th the rules tighten up for Chapter 11 flexibility - thats just 2 weeks away. Will GM file in the next 2 weeks? I don't think so - but then - a lot of people didn't think NorthWest Airlines would file by Oct. 15th either - and both them and Delta did a couple weeks ago.

Sorry for the soapbox.

White Lightening

[kenwood guy]

Originally Posted by White Lightening

Sorry for the soapbox.

White Lightening

Good info in my opinion but in my opinion the unions are "slowing things down." I mean how much more different would say are the 99-06 trucks are???? I remember watching car and driver and they were comparing trucks,The new ram, ford ,nissan and toyota truck and the chevy was dead last because of its old outdated interior and no big major changes with the exception of the new 4 door option, I belive the ford truck took first place because of the many options it had and its new styling. What I want to know is what if GM had no union system and just payed what they want to pay would its product be alot better and how does there system of opeation compare to the imports why not just follow them if there doing so well.

[White Lightening]

Originally Posted by kenwood guy

Good info in my opinion but in my opinion the unions are "slowing things down." I mean how much more different would say are the 99-06 trucks are???? I remember watching car and driver and they were comparing trucks,The new ram, ford ,nissan and toyota truck and the chevy was dead last because of its old outdated interior and no big major changes with the exception of the new 4 door option, I belive the ford truck took first place because of the many options it had and its new styling. What I want to know is what if GM had no union system and just payed what they want to pay would its product be alot better and how does there system of opeation compare to the imports why not just follow them if there doing so well.

I just think it is a compounded problem for GM. Union contracts really are designed for keep it the same and keep it in quantity. I'm not anti union - but I think the union contracts have really stifled the motivation to try new things. Starting wages in WI plants for on the line guys at GM is way too high in total cost. All the special benefits and sideline costs. And management hasn't trimmed down the work force until just the last couple of years - even though prduction capability and efficiency has increased. Think of it - wouldn't you think management would have recognized that theycan't keep making more vehicles per year - when the vehicles last longer?

Ford (remember - I was a Ford guy for most of my adult life) - has always had a history of re-inventing itself - the 97 Ford F150 set a trend. The Ranger. Even in cars - Ford is good at this - the new Mustangs, Jaguars, etc.. Ford seems to take more risks than does GM - the GT, Harley Trucks, Lightnings, Blackwood etc..

The important thing to realize in my opinion - is that foreign car companies aren't beating us - we seem to be beating ourselves. Honda, Nissan, Toyota, and now Hyundai all have major manufacturing locations in both the US and Canada. Most have several. Some of them have been here for 3 decades doing very well. Workers like working in them - the quality is excellent - and the focus is on design engineering, innovation advances, and engines. No unions, good pay (but not staggering pay), good benefits (but not staggering benefits), good management - and a theory - "nobody gets fat but everybody gets full". I don't love foreign car companies over domestic ones - but I respect their willingness to work harder and think smarter than it appears domestic managements and domestic labor leaders do. Remember - those numerous "foreign" plants in the US and Canada are using American works with American wages to produce quality product. the difference isn't the workers - the different is the leaderships in management and labor on domestics versus leaders of managements and labor leaders of the "foreign" car manfucaturers. One side seems to have alot more common sense than does the other side.

Think about it - was it smarter and more logical to design a Dodge SRT 10 or a Nissan Titan? And how come the designer of the Nissan Titan was a past GM engineer who couldn't be "heard" at GM - so Nissan snapped her up eagerly and instantly turned it into a profitable product - and then another product - and another.

I love my 2004 Chevy VHO 2wd truck - I just wish GM management understood why. Less giving away of hundreds of free G6 cars on Oprah Winfrey's show - and more focus on the common sense of their customers.

P.S. Just a quick example from the newspaper. An airline pilot - retired for a domestic airline - is 56 years old and gets $92,000 a year in pension - and is concerned because his pension will be cut a pile if his airline which just filed for Chapter 11 - dumps the pension liability on the U.S. Government. $92K a year in pension at 54 and 55 years old for a pilot. Good Grief - what were labor leaders and managements thinking when they negotiated those deals? This is a pilot - not the president.

White Lightening

[Lobstah]

[quote=TexasF355F1]Out of just the two; Ford and GM, I would predict Ford going under first. Mainly because of their MASSIVE recall list they now have to deal with.

GM currently has 422,000 (yeah, thousand) retirees. Ford and Chrysler aren't far behind. I have a friend who's Dad worked for Chrysler for 30yrs. He retired at 58. He's now 88. Has had a heart attack and cancer...though is doing fine now. Think about it...his pension was %80 of his salary, plus free healthcare for life. He's now been collecting retirement for longer than he actually worked for the company. No one saw that coming, and when they DID, no one admitted it was coming to anyone else.

The unfunded pension liabilities are HUGE, and you and I will foot the bill for that disaster via taxes.

It's a mess, and actually, the sooner the crap hits the a/c, the better, because it just keeps getting worse.

Lob

[BlenderWizard]

Originally Posted by White Lightening

No unions, good pay (but not staggering pay), good benefits (but not staggering benefits), good management - and a theory - "nobody gets fat but everybody gets full".

Yes, and unions are to blame for the staggering pay and the staggering benefits

Originally Posted by Lobstah

GM currently has 422,000 (yeah, thousand) retirees. Ford and Chrysler aren't far behind. I have a friend who's Dad worked for Chrysler for 30yrs. He retired at 58. He's now 88. Has had a heart attack and cancer...though is doing fine now. Think about it...his pension was %80 of his salary, plus free healthcare for life. He's now been collecting retirement for longer than he actually worked for the company. No one saw that coming, and when they DID, no one admitted it was coming to anyone else.

Again, same problem line as above... UAW is to blame

[White Lightening]

New numbers out on sales at GM and Ford for September vehicle sales. Not pretty. -24% for GM and -19% for Ford. Previously on this thread, I mentioned that the GM Pension situation was not pretty with about $28 Billion of underfunding. Well now the new estimates are that it is $31 Billion underfunded.

We're all aware that after October 15th 2005 the bankruptcy rules get tighter. This doesn't mean that GM or Ford would enter Chapter 11 on or before Oct. 15 th of this year. However - we must be aware that both GM and Ford have continued a downward sales pattern (except for the brief summer of 2005 Employee pricing promotion). The net effect? You can't run negative forever. Ford and especially GM need to make changes quickly and inpretty considerable quantity. GM makes good trucks - but sales of truck/SUV have plummeted in September in this category for both Ford and GM. I heard this morning that Ford Explorer sales were off 50% in September.

[Lobstah]

One of the places that GM (or any car manufacturer) could make money is by actually producing a hybrid that could be plugged in, and was specifically designed to run off batteries for a 50mile r/t commute. There are mod kits out there for the Toyota Prius that allow you to do exactly that. It's something consumers need AND want, but in typical fashion, the car manufacturers refuse to produce/market it.
They also need to quit wasting money on things that have absolutely NO payback in terms of sales. My current pet peeve is the "antitheft" radio stuff. No one is going to buy GM over Ford because you can't move the FACTORY radio to another vehicle. I know it's small in the grand scheme of things, but I bet there are hundreds more examples staring them in the face.

All that aside, nothing is going to solve a 31BILLION pension deficit. I know folks blame the UAW, and they certainly are involved in the frey, BUT...so is the mgmt that continued to sign contracts, and so is the GOVERNMENT for allowing unfunding pension liabilities in the first place. Any of us would be in jail if we tried to do what these large corporations are doing.

Old school thinking. I'm just glad I decided to hang on to my Camaro a few years back when someone wanted to buy it. Good representation of Chevy at it's peak.

Lob

[BlenderWizard]

Originally Posted by Lobstah

One of the places that GM (or any car manufacturer) could make money is by actually producing a hybrid that could be plugged in, and was specifically designed to run off batteries for a 50mile r/t commute. There are mod kits out there for the Toyota Prius that allow you to do exactly that. It's something consumers need AND want, but in typical fashion, the car manufacturers refuse to produce/market it.

Lob

GM did - the Saturn EV1. But they seem to have scrapped that project. It looked a bit like a Honda Insight... I actually saw one on the road here where I live, but that was a few years back http://www.eanet.com/kodama/ev1/

[White Lightening]

Originally Posted by Lobstah

One of the places that GM (or any car manufacturer) could make money is by actually producing a hybrid that could be plugged in, and was specifically designed to run off batteries for a 50mile r/t commute. It's something consumers need AND want, but in typical fashion, the car manufacturers refuse to produce/market it.
They also need to quit wasting money on things that have absolutely NO payback in terms of sales. Lob

A hybrid is a fine goal to have - as long as it is not an all electric vehicle or a "power deprived" vehicle. You'll notice that the Toyota and Honda early efforts at all electirc cars have gone by the wayside in favor of true hybrids instead. Safety issues with all electrics is a problem - for owners - and for fireman and rescue people in crashes. The other thing - is if domestic manufacturers would focus on hybrids that are not small in size. Many buyers out there just can't benefit from small cars - they need hybrid mini-van choices and hybrid pickup trucks. A Ford Hybrid Escape may be nice - but a hybrid Explorer or Hybrid Expedition would save alot more gas on a percentage basis and would be desired by wide numbers of people IMO.

Honda's Odyssey passive cylinder process gives advantages to highway drivers increasing their mileage - and more importantly - it does it with room and no compromises.

We need and desire alot more vehicles that can get 26 on the highway (MPG) and 20 in town - that are now getting 17 highway and 11 city. Heavy Duty trucks (2500 and above) could also be passive cylinder choices with alot of pulling power that they are used to but don't always need.

Vehicles that are "commuter friendly" with better MPG and still able to be family vehicles and towing vehicles when it is needed. the domestic manufacturer's need to focus on mass acceptance choices - rather than just specific tiny high mileage choices in my opinion. They haven't so far - its time - before the domestic manufacturers are "out of time" .

White Lightening

[BlenderWizard]

Originally Posted by White Lightening

Honda's Odyssey passive cylinder process gives advantages to highway drivers increasing their mileage - and more importantly - it does it with room and no compromises.
White Lightening

Isn't that nearly identical to GM's upcoming displacement on demand (DoD) vehicles, including full size trucks and SUV's?

[White Lightening]

Originally Posted by BlenderWizard

Isn't that nearly identical to GM's upcoming displacement on demand (DoD) vehicles, including full size trucks and SUV's?

The domestics have announced alot of plans over the last decade - but it is the foreign companies manufactguring in this country that have actually delivered the products and new technology of hybrids. GM has acknowledged for years that they need better minivan products - yet what have they offered? We've heard for decades how we are the technology inventors and implementors - yet we see a much different story when it comes to the automotive industry. While we might greatly desire and cheer for the domestic manufacturer's success - we have to acknowledge that they've been getting their tails whipped when it comes to the creating of solutions for many of our vehicle needs. Debt deepens and domestic auto pensions may go to government liability while we "sleep at the switch". Our domestic manufacturer's average fuel economy REQUIRES that truck/SUV category not be included - or the domestics wouldn't even hit our own regulations for fuel efficiency.

What they have coming in the next year or two - is still a wait to see situation. Meanwhile Honda Accord Hybrids, Odyssey hybrids, Toyota Highlander hybrids and many others - are here to drive now.

White Lightening

[Nigel215]

Chevy has had a Silverado hybrid out since last year. I never saw it advertised at all, just happened to see it one day on their website. Just FYI.... maybe you have already seen this.

[White Lightening]

Originally Posted by Nigel215

Chevy has had a Silverado hybrid out since last year. I never saw it advertised at all, just happened to see it one day on their website. Just FYI.... maybe you have already seen this.

I've heard nothing about them - except they were going to have one - it is coming it is coming it is coming - if there is one out there - it has to be the best kept secret GM has ever had.

White Lightening

[BlenderWizard]

Originally Posted by White Lightening

I've heard nothing about them - except they were going to have one - it is coming it is coming it is coming - if there is one out there - it has to be the best kept secret GM has ever had.

White Lightening

They're out - sort of. They are only available in select states, and Florida is one of them. That is why it seems likely that a Florida driver came up here to where I am in Georgia. They're really nothing special... they get a whopping +1 MPG over the regular Silverado. If I recall, how it works is that when you come to a complete stop, it shuts the engine off, and the instantly restarts it when the gas pedal is pushed
http://www.chevrolet.com/silverado/#silverado-hybrid
http://www.auto123.com/en/info/news/...py?artid=25784
http://autos.yahoo.com/newcars/chevr..._overview.html
http://www.hybridcars.com/silverado-sierra.html