Lumina Dies randomly... weird problem

[nrockwell320]

I have the same problem. Did you find the problem? We have checked and replaced the following

plugs/wires/fuel filter, air filter, throttal positioning sensor, crank sensor, and computer module. After every attempt problem reappeared when auto hot.

I found what I "think" is a vaccumn hose. The shape of it looks like it goes into the "throttal body" somewhere but I haven't found the connection yet.

[NeonKnight]

replace your Ignition control module, that is what i am told is wrong with mine. they are about $152 new at autozone (bay area C) and like a $15 gasket, if you have replaced the comp and that has not done it replace the ICM. mine is being done on monday by my brother at his GMC/pontiac dealership he works at. we used a tech1 scan tool and it wasnt the comp. and the ICM was acting odd... and i was told by a couple mechanics that usually the ICM is going bad but people think its the computer.

[meuhus]

Originally Posted by NeonKnight

okay took the ECM to autozone to figure out that they dont test them... well w/e they can go screw themselves for now i slapped it back into my car, relearned idle and the car seemed to run fine. so i took her for a longer ride where she could get warmed up nicely. on the way back home i felt a grab 2 times 1 a few seconds after the other, but didnt see the RPMs jump. im wondering, could this be the TCC? i know i can just disconnect that jumper and see if she still does it. and if not then im good. My only concern is that i dont have any SES codes comming up at all. and im hoping that if i dont drive her and it is the TCC that i can repair it myself without having to worry about much.

i had and could be still having injector problems
i was crusing on the inter state
nd going about 45 mph
then opened it up to aroud 85
then was decellerating again then the car fell flat on its face
and won't idle at all
and i could only go about ten mph
i found one bad injector but replaced then all
ran good for about a month now having similar problems again sounds like yours \
mine seems worse when is warned up
it also idles alittle rough
not nice and smooth like when injectors where first replaced

maybe have the injectors checked or cleaned

[NeonKnight]

every oil change i use injector cleaner, and i checked them they all ran fine with the right voltage. yours sounds much diffrent then mine, when my car did its little thing on the freeway it just dropped a lot of rpms like there was no spark so no engine and then jumped right back up. we have got it down to being the ICM and i am having it replaced today or tomorrow whenever i get the time and my car back from my bro.

[NeonKnight]

Okay my car is now fixed and working perfectly.

I replaced the ICM (Ignition Control Module) It cost me $99 at Autozone. Lifetime warranty and made by wells. Car runs like a champ. no more problems i hope and more work is picking up with my 2nd job now and im going to start doing my interior work on her.

i started working on her this morning at 7:00 in the freezing cold with no jacket.. my head was steaming hahaha. i finished at 11:00 My Lumina ate my 7/32 Socket and extension 1 time, i recovered it after about 20 mins.... and then it ate my 7/32 socket... i couldnt get that one out, i had another so it didnt matter at the time. getting the coils and stuff back in place was a pain in the butt. but i found if u shove it all the way up left, it kind of sits in place and just screw in the far right coil and life is easier.

This is an experience i would rather not do again, although my car was dead cold... was very stressful at times. i still have yet to find that missing socket in my car and im driving it! hahahaha. it will eventually fall out. I know it went behind the starter and down into the cradle somewhere, or i think it did. im not worried. my car has eaten my tools before. once it was a Socket wrench that took some time and work to get back.. now i promised her if she worked good i would clean her time to wash and 2x coat wax my baby.

She really is the devil in a red dress : /

[quattro527]

Originally Posted by NeonKnight

Okay my car is now fixed and working perfectly.

I replaced the ICM (Ignition Control Module) It cost me $99 at Autozone. Lifetime warranty and made by wells. Car runs like a champ. no more problems i hope and more work is picking up with my 2nd job now and im going to start doing my interior work on her.

i started working on her this morning at 7:00 in the freezing cold with no jacket.. my head was steaming hahaha. i finished at 11:00 My Lumina ate my 7/32 Socket and extension 1 time, i recovered it after about 20 mins.... and then it ate my 7/32 socket... i couldnt get that one out, i had another so it didnt matter at the time. getting the coils and stuff back in place was a pain in the butt. but i found if u shove it all the way up left, it kind of sits in place and just screw in the far right coil and life is easier.

This is an experience i would rather not do again, although my car was dead cold... was very stressful at times. i still have yet to find that missing socket in my car and im driving it! hahahaha. it will eventually fall out. I know it went behind the starter and down into the cradle somewhere, or i think it did. im not worried. my car has eaten my tools before. once it was a Socket wrench that took some time and work to get back.. now i promised her if she worked good i would clean her time to wash and 2x coat wax my baby.

She really is the devil in a red dress : /

...Please forgive my ignorance (American cars seem "Foreign" to me []), but is the ICM the same as the ignition coil? Instead of the standard "distributor" which is fed by a seperate coil, this car has a harness that plugs directly in there (I'm assuming the coil module is inside?).

Your symptoms/solutions also sound similar to my reply on this thread: (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=268400)

[NeonKnight]

Originally Posted by quattro527

...Please forgive my ignorance (American cars seem "Foreign" to me []), but is the ICM the same as the ignition coil? Instead of the standard "distributor" which is fed by a seperate coil, this car has a harness that plugs directly in there (I'm assuming the coil module is inside?).

Your symptoms/solutions also sound similar to my reply on this thread: (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=268400)

Okay, your best bet. if you have a day off, and another ride to autozone go ahead and pull your Ignition control Module, the coils sit on top of it. take it to autozone and they can test it. just make sure you have your car nice and cold when you do this. the coils are in the front of the car above the front exhaust manifold. you will have to take the bolts out kinda blindly but it can be done.

When putting the ICM back in place, shove it all the way up left, and it will kind of find its little groove to sit in. you will feel it once you hit it. then slap on teh far right coil, bottom bolt first and start screwing them all in.

[quattro527]

Originally Posted by NeonKnight

Okay, your best bet. if you have a day off, and another ride to autozone go ahead and pull your Ignition control Module, the coils sit on top of it. take it to autozone and they can test it. just make sure you have your car nice and cold when you do this. the coils are in the front of the car above the front exhaust manifold. you will have to take the bolts out kinda blindly but it can be done.

When putting the ICM back in place, shove it all the way up left, and it will kind of find its little groove to sit in. you will feel it once you hit it. then slap on teh far right coil, bottom bolt first and start screwing them all in.

UPDATE: I did what you told me... in fact, I just picked up 3 new coils from Autozone and swapped them out. I did the factory recommended specs and tested the coils w/ the multimeter (iirc the specs are 0.5-0.9vdc), and they showed to be "bad". The wires were also replaced as well. The minute I put them in, I tried cranking... the engine turned over and fired up immediately. Repeated it couple of times all with good results.

HOWEVER, the idle would still be very jerky.. with RPM's flutuating up and down. I tried giving it some gas... the RPM's when then drop the instant I tap it, then climb up...and immediately drop to a point of stalling (it stalled a few times). I tried resetting the ECU to let the ECU re-learn... no luck. This time I opened up the air box, removed the MAF, and cleaned the TB and maf w/ intake/carb cleaner and everything else... and a lot of gunk came out. I tried starting the motor again...same results... I let the car idle to burn off all the junk. It idles for about 5min or so. I then tried giving it gas again after... and the second I even tap the gas, engine splutters then stalls. Keep in mind, the whole time the engine has been running super rich... as if the combustion chamber has been flooded.

I did some more searches, and found these other possible causes:

EGR
IAT (I believe this car has one?)
ECT (coolant temp sensor)

Does anybody have a diagram of these components (location, procedures, etc)...or can suggest anything else?

Thanks again

-Jeff

[meuhus]

Originally Posted by quattro527

UPDATE: I did what you told me... in fact, I just picked up 3 new coils from Autozone and swapped them out. I did the factory recommended specs and tested the coils w/ the multimeter (iirc the specs are 0.5-0.9vdc), and they showed to be "bad". The wires were also replaced as well. The minute I put them in, I tried cranking... the engine turned over and fired up immediately. Repeated it couple of times all with good results.

HOWEVER, the idle would still be very jerky.. with RPM's flutuating up and down. I tried giving it some gas... the RPM's when then drop the instant I tap it, then climb up...and immediately drop to a point of stalling (it stalled a few times). I tried resetting the ECU to let the ECU re-learn... no luck. This time I opened up the air box, removed the MAF, and cleaned the TB and maf w/ intake/carb cleaner and everything else... and a lot of gunk came out. I tried starting the motor again...same results... I let the car idle to burn off all the junk. It idles for about 5min or so. I then tried giving it gas again after... and the second I even tap the gas, engine splutters then stalls. Keep in mind, the whole time the engine has been running super rich... as if the combustion chamber has been flooded.

I did some more searches, and found these other possible causes:

EGR
IAT (I believe this car has one?)
ECT (coolant temp sensor)

Does anybody have a diagram of these components (location, procedures, etc)...or can suggest anything else?

Thanks again

-Jeff

i had similar problems with my 91 w/3.1
i was running extremely rich
after pounding my head agianst a wall for a couple of days
checking different things
i finally took off the upper intake manifold
and checked the injectors
with an ohm meter
i found one realy bad one and a few others
were on the low side of being good
the realy bad one masured only 4 ohms
others were from 11.6 to 12.5
they all should be around 12 ohms
i replaced them all with reconditioned ones
since i couldn't aford new
and car runs well now
idles drive ect.
maybe look there

[quattro527]

Originally Posted by meuhus

i had similar problems with my 91 w/3.1
i was running extremely rich
after pounding my head agianst a wall for a couple of days
checking different things
i finally took off the upper intake manifold
and checked the injectors
with an ohm meter
i found one realy bad one and a few others
were on the low side of being good
the realy bad one masured only 4 ohms
others were from 11.6 to 12.5
they all should be around 12 ohms
i replaced them all with reconditioned ones
since i couldn't aford new
and car runs well now
idles drive ect.
maybe look there

Did you check your IAC and EGR and clean them out?..or did you replace the injectors immediately?

[meuhus]

Originally Posted by quattro527

Did you check your IAC and EGR and clean them out?..or did you replace the injectors immediately?

i had replaced iac
a while ago
so i new it was good
the egr will cause a code if it is bad
(one of its componets not working or if it is stuck)
if an egr is stuck open will cause a lean fuel mix
and through a code

if you have the time check your injectors
i would deffinitly check them before buying new ones
new one are like $65 each (at autozone)
i found reconditioned at injectors4u.com for $16 each

but i am not an expert
just sounds similar to my problem

iac will only affect idle

[quattro527]

Originally Posted by meuhus

i had replaced iac
a while ago
so i new it was good
the egr will cause a code if it is bad
(one of its componets not working or if it is stuck)
if an egr is stuck open will cause a lean fuel mix
and through a code

if you have the time check your injectors
i would deffinitly check them before buying new ones
new one are like $65 each (at autozone)
i found reconditioned at injectors4u.com for $16 each

but i am not an expert
just sounds similar to my problem

iac will only affect idle

My problem is all idle related. With the coils and wires now replaced...the car would start up immediately. HOWEVER, the idle would be very jerky (with a scent of unburned carbon/fuel). I will have to rev the car up a few times for the idle to settle, but sometimes it doesn't settle...and instead..the RPM's would drop even lower and sometimes stall the car.

Forgive my ignorance, but where exactly is the IAC located at? Any diagrams/pics would be appreciated. I figured the car has 115k, and I dont think the IAC was ever cleaned or replaced.

Also..any thoughts about replacing the fuel filter that could probably be another remedy?

-Jeff

[meuhus]

Originally Posted by quattro527

My problem is all idle related. With the coils and wires now replaced...the car would start up immediately. HOWEVER, the idle would be very jerky (with a scent of unburned carbon/fuel). I will have to rev the car up a few times for the idle to settle, but sometimes it doesn't settle...and instead..the RPM's would drop even lower and sometimes stall the car.

Forgive my ignorance, but where exactly is the IAC located at? Any diagrams/pics would be appreciated. I figured the car has 115k, and I dont think the IAC was ever cleaned or replaced.

Also..any thoughts about replacing the fuel filter that could probably be another remedy?

-Jeff

iac is in the throtle body
it is black with two torx screws
holding it in place
it has like 4 or 5 wires
going to it
it is sort of round with a oval flange that the bolt go thru

i think this too would give you a code but
it is worth looking at
is your check engine light on?
the car runs fine off idle?

if your check engine light is on autozone can read your codes
for free and they may even help you locate the sensor

or the have these key things you can buy for like a dollar or two
that you can plug into the aldl connector
to get the codes your self
and i would buy a haynes manual ($15-$20)
it tells you and shows you a pretty good descripition of
the idle air controler

[quattro527]

Originally Posted by meuhus

iac is in the throtle body
it is black with two torx screws
holding it in place
it has like 4 or 5 wires
going to it
it is sort of round with a oval flange that the bolt go thru

i think this too would give you a code but
it is worth looking at
is your check engine light on?
the car runs fine off idle?

if your check engine light is on autozone can read your codes
for free and they may even help you locate the sensor

or the have these key things you can buy for like a dollar or two
that you can plug into the aldl connector
to get the codes your self
and i would buy a haynes manual ($15-$20)
it tells you and shows you a pretty good descripition of
the idle air controler

Just picked up a scan tool lastnight. Scanned the car for codes, and it gave me missfire codes. Missfires in Cylinder #6, and "Random Missfires". My plugs are only a week old, but they are completely FOULED and scorched black with carbon (richness). I didn't get any other codes other than "Evap/Emissions", which could be due to it running rich and missing.

A faulty IAC or EGR would have thrown a code i suposse? I've had a few people (including yourself now) telling me it's the injectors, and I will have them tested tonight and let you guys know the results. If it IS the injectors, it could possibly be #6 (most people are complaining about that one), and that's the same cylinder giving me the missfires.

Thanks again

Jeff

[meuhus]

Originally Posted by quattro527

Just picked up a scan tool lastnight. Scanned the car for codes, and it gave me missfire codes. Missfires in Cylinder #6, and "Random Missfires". My plugs are only a week old, but they are completely FOULED and scorched black with carbon (richness). I didn't get any other codes other than "Evap/Emissions", which could be due to it running rich and missing.

A faulty IAC or EGR would have thrown a code i suposse? I've had a few people (including yourself now) telling me it's the injectors, and I will have them tested tonight and let you guys know the results. If it IS the injectors, it could possibly be #6 (most people are complaining about that one), and that's the same cylinder giving me the missfires.

Thanks again

Jeff

just make sure you check them before you buy them
you also may want to get a noid light
it is a test light that plugs into the injectors electrical connector
to check for a pulse from the computer you may have to do this with the manifold off
so i would disable your ignition by pulling the dis fuse
to prevent the car from starting
plug in the noid light and crank the engine
you may need an assitant
to look at the light or crank the engine
also look at your wiring for the injectors
make sure none of them are worn thru and shorting out
this could cause your injectors to not work
but it if there was a short it would or should blow the injector fuse

good luck