Gas Prices!!!

[eversio11]

In the city of Chicago I see BP prices around 2.72 for 87. Out in the burbs it's around 2.45.

[Steel]

Ha. If only you knew how much you were REALLY paying per gallon of gasoline in the U.S. Im talking aobut the hidden costs to keep the military in the M.E., keep kissing the saudi's buts, so on so forth.

It's a lot higher than $2.xx. You just don't see it.

[highteknology]

start riding your bicycle. save on gas and get a workout at the same time.

one thing that people should also keep in mind is the ever increasing market for oil in China. i read or heard somewhere that China could very well pass the US in oil demands in the next 15-20 years. with the technologies used to refine oil improving it will help us out short term, but to me it seems like we are just delaying the inevitable. i want one of those back to the future cars that runs on trash or something like that.

[fredjacksonsan]

Originally Posted by highteknology

i want one of those back to the future cars that runs on trash or something like that.

Heh heh, it's "Mr. Fusion"

[longlivetheZ]

Originally Posted by fredjacksonsan

Couple things are contributing. First, there are only so many refineries. That limits the production. You could have an unlimited supply of free oil, and if the refineries couldn't keep up with demand then prices would still rise. I've recently read an article that suggested the oil companies, knowing that the oil will be running out in "X" number of years, don't want to put the money into new refineries to increase production. As you said, they're in it for the money and it wouldn't pay to do that.


Again it's linked to the refineries' capacity to produce. 10 or 15 years ago, they could flood the market if they wanted to. Nowadays, that's less likely since the demand for petroleum products has increased so much.

Ok...then, going by what you're telling me, those same refineries you mention can no longer produce enough oil to keep prices where they were for SO LONG...as far back as I remember, I can't remember EVER even TALKING about gas prices. What happened? Did we start using WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more oil, all of a sudden putting a strain on the refineries or is something's goin on keeping production down...be it stupid political antics or whatever. It has to be one of those 2 things. The same refineries kept the prices down to a reasonable price for so long...I find it hard to believe that our usage has gone up so steeply as to increase the price of gas to record highs in just a couple years.

[lazysmurff]

i understand your frustration longlivethez, but you have to understand, supply and demand doesnt work on a "must" principle, but a "can" principle.

lets imagine your an oil company. you happen to be in the business of supply the world with its life blood. without oil, society as we know it will cease to exist. but youve got alot of it, and knowing that you have a captive group of customers, you dont charge too much.

but as supplies begin to dwindle and demand increases (and you have to pay more money to find and refine more oil) you decide "this shit is getting expensive, my profit margin is dwindling" so you up the price, knowing that you can, because everyone needs oil.

now, suppose you hear about this "peak oil" thing, and realize that eventually supply will no longer keep up with demand.

*side note* this is the real problem. we're not going to run out of oil (though we will eventually) its that production will reach a peak, at which it can no longer keep up with demand. happened in texas in the 70's. still plenty of oil under there, just cant get to it cheaply and fast enough.*end note*

so, you realize that your life blood (oil has fed you and your family for your whole life) if about to be depleted. but you still have a captive consumer base. so you jack up the price, intending to make as much money while you still can, yet you keep it low enough that people will still hold out hope for alternative fuels and such and by doing so prevent the lynching of you and your company.

*another side note* alternative fuels are nice and all, but think about the technology that drive them. whats it based on? thats right! cheap oil. everything in our lives depends on cheap oil and coal reserves, even our power plants. time to go nuclear guys. stop being scared hippies, and push your local governments to set up a plan to go nuclear by 2020, or sooner. its alot safer than it used to be and alot cleaner. also, push your national government to demand a 10% fleet increase in MPG. this would help. and dammit, tap those alaskan reserves. the caribou can deal with it. *end rant*

[tenguzero]

Some good points LazySmurff, but when it comes to things like the wildlife preserve it's a matter (for me at least) of principle. Why should we have to even consider it? I can think of many reasons why it's just not a good idea: aside from the obvious threat to wildlife should an oil spill happen (much more difficult to try and clean up after in freezing, often ice choked waters) there's the looming possibility that we just flat out may not even FIND any there. The northern seas have been NOTORIOUS for leading companies into spending massive amounts of money on "dry wells" -- very promising drilling sites that never end up yielding any oil. BP Exploration spent over 750 MILLION DOLLARS because of regulatory/legal delays and unanticipated difficulties drilling...and their site yields about 60,000 barrels per day. The U.S. uses about 7 BILLION barrels a year. Suffice it to say, any way I try and approach the whole Alaska drilling business from a productivity standpoint, it strikes me as no more effective than a squirtgun on a forest fire.

You're right that so much in our lives depends on fossil fuels, including the steps toward alternative fuels -- but that's the problem. Fossil fuels have stuck around WAY beyond their time, which is a testament to their all-encompassing pervasiveness, which means that it makes it that much harder for us to get off them. We're like increasingly aging junkies -- as long as we keep getting our fix (in the necessarily increasing doses) everything's seemingly OK (to us.) But there eventually comes a time when a decision has to be made: get off the juice, and move on with life, or let the shit drag you down to the bottom. And right now, we're drowning fast. Developing countries like China and India are like new users: the high is speeding them up, keeping them on their toes, energizing them, etc. But it would be a lot easier for them at this early point to just drop the habit, and move on, as they're not really entrenched with the stuff yet.

Fossil fuel demands should have gone the way of the dinosaurs, Aristotle's solar system, and the Pinto. But instead, like hair-brained reality TV shows, the 2004 presidential campaign, and Michael Jackson, we've managed to keep the shit going. Why? Even if the governement spent "only" 500 million pursuing oil in Alaska, wouldn't that money be so much better spent on alternative fuel programs?

[lazysmurff]

the stab at the alaskan reserves was meant (mostly) in jest. for the two years (give or take) that we'd get out of it, it would do ridiculous amounts of damage to the ecosystems and environments. to make my position clearer:

we should not be afraid to tap into those reserves. but it should be a last ditch effort. if we seek to continue to live as we do now, we must find a way to slow down our oil consumption long enough to develope reliable alternative energy sources. if we have to tap into those reserves in alaska to extend the amount of time we have, so be it.

but i would rather our government remove their heads from their asses and impose increased MPG mandates, as little as 5% would do an incredable amount, though id like to see a 15%-20% minimum.

for those of you keeping score, i understand that this is way out of step with my usual "no government" stance. allow me to explain. while i personally would love to see our impulsviely consumerist society crumble from its own overindulgence, i understand that the majority of americans ejoy their comfort, but what they fail to understand is that peak oil poses a much larger threat to our way of life than osama bin laden ever did. so, if mr bush is really interested in upholding all that rhetoric he and his collegues are spewing on a regular basis, i suggest he locate his balls, and stick it to the oil companies he so nobley serves.

[longlivetheZ]

I'm a bit too busy to read ALL of the info in all of those posts, but I read most of it and most of it said in different ways, essentially corroborating, EXACTLY what I'm pissed off about.

It all comes down to the greed of another. <--Nicely put and expletives deleted...

[CountDrac]

Heh, I live in the Netherlands and yesterday I payed 1.38 euro for 1 liter 95 octane, that's about 7.30 usd per gallon.

Drac

[fredjacksonsan]

I guess we should quit our whining, eh?

[CountDrac]

Originally Posted by fredjacksonsan

I guess we should quit our whining, eh?

You can whine about it if you want to. Just wanted to add some perspective. I think the prices are even higher in the UK and Norway.

Drac

[longlivetheZ]

Dude...what the hell? How/why do you guys even drive any more? I'm sure it's not as bad for you guys, though, cuz you're used to it...it's all relative...that's just so expensive because of the currency exchange.

[CountDrac]

Originally Posted by longlivetheZ

Dude...what the hell? How/why do you guys even drive any more? I'm sure it's not as bad for you guys, though, cuz you're used to it...it's all relative...that's just so expensive because of the currency exchange.

I guess it's just like smoking, no matter how expensive you make it, you'll keep on doin'it. Besides driving still beats going with public transportation, which isn't very practical when you need to visit clients. U.S. oil prices are lower, because you own more oil companies, I think. And we have to pay a shit load of taxes over our gas price.

[Tehvisseeus]

Originally Posted by lazysmurff

and dammit, tap those alaskan reserves. the caribou can deal with it. *end rant*

Funny story about that I heard couple years back. When they were test drilling Alaska the caribou were actually thriving. Apparently They like the heat produced from the pumps or something like that. So once again just a little hippie nonsense.