More overheating

[djphix]

Originally Posted by Ihatemyventure2

Thanks for the info! I was wondering if that thing was holding it on there. Your right it almost loooks like a dowel pin, and I didn't realize it was even part of a head bolt. By the way if it is a part of the head bolt I wouldn't worry about it to much because you are suppose to replace all the head bolts when you do the gaskets because the threads are stretched.

Quick question! For sure for sure how many bolts were holding the strut bracket in place other then the one that looks like a dowel? GM dealer said only two, which was all I could find!

There were 4 total. 2 long bolts holding the A/C compressor on, 1 right above the left compressor bolt, and 1 right next to the left most head bolt up top.

Also, you don't have to remove the rear exhaust manifold to remove the rear head. It is easier to loosen the middle set of exhaust manifold nuts and studs from underneath. Once you pull the rear exhaust manifold nuts and studs from the head, the head will lift straight off. Again, I'd recommend a lot of liquid wrench on the exhaust manifold nuts/studs. I broke 2 off on the fron head.

I took both heads to a machine shop today. I'll start re-assembly as soon as I get them back and let you know how it goes.

[ejazz]

Sorry about not responding guys- My brother sold the van after we got it fixed and I never checked back here until now.
If I remember right, there were four bolts holding that front strut bracket and the head bolt top that acts like a dowel pin. By now you probably realize how fun they are to get back in there! If someone can hep you they can sort of push the motor back to allow a little more room in there. Some of my exhaust manifold studs broke off in the head also but the machine shop removed them and I replaced them. I also replaced the 6 bolts on the exhaust manifold ends where the crossover pipe goes. Something else that happened to me was after we got the van back together and went for a test drive was that the speedometer did not work and the van was shifting funny. It turned out that when we were tipping the motor back and forth we unplugged the vehicle speed sensor on the passenger side transaxle. What a relief to find an unplugged wire! Hope some of this helped, I check back more often. Good luck and hope your knuckles all heal after this job!

[ejazz]

Definately easier putting the rear exhaust manifold on the head when it's on the bench! I put the heat shields on and the sparkplugs in the back head before putting it on. Just remember not to hit the bottom of the plug on anything when it's sticking out the bottom of the head, you'll have gap issues. Also consider changing the oxygen sensor in the rear exhaust manifold at this time. It's a wear-out part and won't be any easier to get to than now.

[Ihatemyventure2]

Originally Posted by ejazz

Sorry about not responding guys- My brother sold the van after we got it fixed and I never checked back here until now.
If I remember right, there were four bolts holding that front strut bracket and the head bolt top that acts like a dowel pin. By now you probably realize how fun they are to get back in there! If someone can hep you they can sort of push the motor back to allow a little more room in there. Some of my exhaust manifold studs broke off in the head also but the machine shop removed them and I replaced them. I also replaced the 6 bolts on the exhaust manifold ends where the crossover pipe goes. Something else that happened to me was after we got the van back together and went for a test drive was that the speedometer did not work and the van was shifting funny. It turned out that when we were tipping the motor back and forth we unplugged the vehicle speed sensor on the passenger side transaxle. What a relief to find an unplugged wire! Hope some of this helped, I check back more often. Good luck and hope your knuckles all heal after this job!

Did you take your heads to a machine shop or did you just re-install them with new gaskets?

[djphix]

Originally Posted by Ihatemyventure2

Did you take your heads to a machine shop or did you just re-install them with new gaskets?

I'd definitely recommend taking them to a machine shop. It doesn't make a lot of sense to put a potentially cracked head back on the van. Besides, the place I took mine did a lot better job of degreasing them than I would have.

Total cost was $223 after taxes. They checked the heads for cracks and warp-age, pressure tested each cylinder, degreased them, removed the 2 studs that had broken off during removal, and resurfaced them.

Better safe than sorry.

[cdru]

Originally Posted by djphix

Total cost was $223 after taxes. They checked the heads for cracks and warp-age, pressure tested each cylinder, degreased them, removed the 2 studs that had broken off during removal, and resurfaced them.

Is that $223 just the machine shop work, or was the entire repair, gaskets included?

Last week I did the intake gasket repair. Got everything all back together just to find out that I get to do the heads this weekend. Grrr. At least I'm getting good at tearing down things.


Also, for those that did the head job, is it required to replace the bolts? It appears that the bolts are torqued to yield (torqued to a value + a certain number of degrees). Shop manual says nothing about replacing the bolts, Haynes manual says to save the bolts in order to reuse them, dealer parts counter says that they can be reused without a problem and the service desk guy said that it's recommended. I guess its conclusively inconclusive as to what to do.

[Ihatemyventure2]

Originally Posted by cdru

Is that $223 just the machine shop work, or was the entire repair, gaskets included?

Last week I did the intake gasket repair. Got everything all back together just to find out that I get to do the heads this weekend. Grrr. At least I'm getting good at tearing down things.


Also, for those that did the head job, is it required to replace the bolts? It appears that the bolts are torqued to yield (torqued to a value + a certain number of degrees). Shop manual says nothing about replacing the bolts, Haynes manual says to save the bolts in order to reuse them, dealer parts counter says that they can be reused without a problem and the service desk guy said that it's recommended. I guess its conclusively inconclusive as to what to do.

I was told by more then one source you have to replace the bolts... I did the same thing you did first two then I messed up an intake gasket tearing it down for the heads. So I'm doing the hole job over. as for the heads I believe that is $200 more to add onto the price of the gaskets and all. Here is a list of parts that should be replaced to my recolection.

injector seals . fuel line o rings coolant bypass seal upper and lower intake head gaskets head bolts might as well change your thermastat also there is one other gasket for another part but I just can't remember off the top of my head what it is! It's alot of work, I'm still stuck on this bracket can't locate the other bolts and I have nobody to tilt the motor back for me.

[cdru]

Originally Posted by Ihatemyventure2

I was told by more then one source you have to replace the bolts...

This then contradicts what 2 shops told me this afternoon. One even said that a more or less industry standard is that if a bolt has a 6-sided head, they are not stretch bold, but if they are 12 sided or have a torx or allen wrench style head they are stretch. I relly didn't want to spend an additional $116 on bolts from the dealer (or 80 non-OEM).

injector seals, fuel line o rings, coolant bypass seal, upper and lower intake head gaskets head bolts might as well change your thermastat also there is one other gasket for another part but I just can't remember off the top of my head what it is!

Several things you didn't mention that are suggested to be replaced are:
-injector o-rings (leave the fuel lines connected to the rail...it's easier and less messy to just unbolt the two bolts holding down the rail. The rail and injectors just pop off and can easily be laid over towards the cruise control/ABS hardware.
-You got the bypass pipe o-ring, but you forgot the o-ring on the pipe that connects nearby the thermostat housing. I beleive this goes back to the heater core
-Oil pump drive shaft o-ring under where the distributor would have been. It will leak if it hasn't already (looks like a main seal leak from the bottom of the car), easy to do, and only costs a few dollars for the o-ring.
-radiator cap - might as well replace it unless you have recently.

Depending on how far you really want to go, you can also do exhaust gaskets, spark plugs, and HO2S since it's very easy to reach with the manifolds off.

It's alot of work, I'm still stuck on this bracket can't locate the other bolts and I have nobody to tilt the motor back for me.

Just thinking off the top of my head, but how about a jack (or anything else wedged in there) pushing between the driver side mount and the front member? Shouldn't take much to push it back. Getting the heads off is my goal for tonight. I'll know more about what you are going through in about 6 hours.

[cdru]

Originally Posted by djphix

Also, you don't have to remove the rear exhaust manifold to remove the rear head. It is easier to loosen the middle set of exhaust manifold nuts and studs from underneath. Once you pull the rear exhaust manifold nuts and studs from the head, the head will lift straight off. Again, I'd recommend a lot of liquid wrench on the exhaust manifold nuts/studs. I broke 2 off on the fron head.

Thanks for the advice on the rear manifold. It saved a lot of heartache that trying to get those 6 bolts would have caused.

I started last night for about an hour and a half. I got pretty much everything stripped down ready to remove the lower manifold and called it an evening. Tonight, I got down and removed the heads. For others that might tackle this job, here are a few things that worked for me:

-To remove the front engine mount, there is 1 bolt on the top and 3 on teh bottom. It will likely stick like there is a 5th bolt, but it is just stuck on the stud to the left of the top bolt. I put a large long screwdriver thought the top of the mount to get a good hold, then was able to rock it back and forth off.

-Twist off the 3 nuts/studs on the crossover pipe going to the front manifold. They will break off. Don't even bother soaking them in penetrating oil. Just drill em out later and replace the studs or use bolts.

-Depending on where the bolts twist off in the above step, you may or may not be able to remove the front head without taking off the manifold. I wasn't lucky and the cross over pipe couldn't move far enough to clear the broken studs, so I had to remove the front manifold. Cylinder 2 top bolt was barely there and twisted off immediately. The lower bolt had already broken off long ago as evident by the large black area around the exhaust port. Use a breaker bar to losen up the nuts initially. A ratchet wrench can then be used to remove them. Use short, firm strokes. Don't snap the wrench sharply, but don't gradually lean into it. One of 3 things will happen - the nut will just spin off, the nut will seize but still back out the stud from the head, or snap off. On the front I ended up with 2 snapped, 2 studs pulled out, and 2 studs left. On the rear 4 studs pulled out and 2 remained.

-As noted in the above quoted post, just remove the rear manifold with the rear head. I also left the crossover pipe bolted to the manifold. There are two bolts attaching the manifold to the tail pipe. An impact wrench, breaker bar, and 18 or 24 inches of extensions make fairly short order of these bolts from underneith the car.

-The head bolts were on tight. You really gotta try to get these off. A 1/2 breaker bar helps here. Crack the bolts in a counterclockwise pattern, starting in the lower right bolt, getting the outside bolts first, then the inside bolts. Then continue losening them up 1/4 turn in the same pattern until they are finger lose. Do this for both the front and rear.

-I got lucky and my heads literally fell off. They didn't stick at all. Quickly remove the heads and set them aside. Wipe up any excess coolant that leaks down into the cylinders.

-Keep everything in order. I used a large box bottom and punched holes in it for all push rods, rockers, and bolts. I also used snack sized zip-lock baggies to put all bolts in. As you remove a set of bolts (e.g. alternator brackets, upper manifold, lower, etc), toss them in a marked bag. It'll make it easier later.

Looking at my head gaskets, heads, and block, it appeared that they had been leaking for a while. The gasket was fairly soaked in coolant, and not just from removing the head. It appears that it actually absorbed some in areas where it would normally be clamped down.

Below are a few pictures (click for larger versions):
Just with the rear head removed. I removed the rear head first so that any crude that might have fallen off the rear wouldn't fall in the front cylinders or coolant openings. Or you could just put a cloth/paper towel/newspaper over it too.

Just a picture of the gasket. You can't tell real easily, but you can see some of the areas where coolant had been outside of the obvious areas that are around the coolant channels.

This is a side profile of the gasket. You can really see how much it has bilistered up. 7 years and 152,000 miles apparently do this to a head gasket. The blisters aren't just the brown sludge that appears in our systems, but actually hard corrosion of the gasket. It can be scraped off, but it obviously destroys that area of the gasket.

Just a pic of the block. Not a whole heck of a lot left. The coolant is green due to the leak dye I put in...3 coolant changes ago. A little last forever in the system and I just haven't had the desire to truely flush the system. It actually is orange when you look at a large accumulation, but individual drops appear green. The red areas are just coolant passageways that have a rust-like color. The digital picture just has some funky colors.

Hopefully the heads will go into to the machine shop tomorrow to get a hot bath, 2 studs removed, planed (if needed still) and possibly new valve seals since it will never be easier to do. Now I just have to find a shop open on Saturday morning.

[Ihatemyventure2]

Can someone provide me with a picture of the front bracket so I can see where all the bolts are located. I seriously can not find or see two of them. Maybe even a quick drawing to show me.

[cdru]

Originally Posted by Ihatemyventure2

Can someone provide me with a picture of the front bracket so I can see where all the bolts are located. I seriously can not find or see two of them. Maybe even a quick drawing to show me.

Sure thing.



The yellow circle is the bolt on the top of the mount, visible (and removed) from the top of the engine. You are seeing the bottom of the hole here.

The green circle is a stud...nothing to remove although it likely will prevent the mount from just falling off. My father and I couldn't figure out what the heck this was for other then possibly an assembly aid. This stud is also the lower left head bolt. The actual hole really isn't visible (too dark)

The two red circles are bolts that aren't visible because they are long bolts that go through the A/C compressor. There is also a 3rd bolt that holds the AC compressor on that must to make room to remove the bracket.

The blue circle is a short bolt on the bottom of the mount and easily visible. This can be removed without removing the AC compressor.

Let me know if there is anything else you want a picture of...the heads are in the shop until Tuesday and then things are going back together.

[Ihatemyventure2]

Thats awesome thanks very much! The other thing would be the order of the rods and the lengths they are for the valves. I put them in a box standing up in the order I took them out but previous to me going after the head gaskets I did the upper and lower intake gaskets and my friend just yanked them all out without thinking. I just want to make sure I got them all correct.


If you can start at the back left and goto the right.
Then start at the front left and goto the right.

[cdru]

Originally Posted by Ihatemyventure2

Thats awesome thanks very much! The other thing would be the order of the rods and the lengths they are for the valves. I put them in a box standing up in the order I took them out but previous to me going after the head gaskets I did the upper and lower intake gaskets and my friend just yanked them all out without thinking. I just want to make sure I got them all correct.


If you can start at the back left and goto the right.
Then start at the front left and goto the right.

I think the exhaust rods are the shorter, but don't quote me on it. I'll have to check later tonight when I run back over to my parents place.

[cdru]

Originally Posted by cdru

I think the exhaust rods are the shorter, but don't quote me on it. I'll have to check later tonight when I run back over to my parents place.

Doh. I was incorrect. It's the exhaust that are longer (indicated as an L below). The intake rods are shorter (indicated as an S below).

The order for the back row (cylinders 1,3, and 5), from passenger side to driver side, is L-S-L-S-S-L
The order for the front row (cylinders 2,4, and 6), from passenger side to driver side, is L-S-S-L-S-L.

I don't know however if there are any downsides to reusing the push rods in different lifters. Ideally they should be put back in the same order, but that isn't an option here. At a bare minimum clean them up and check for pitting and scoring. Also roll them across a flat table to see if any are bent. Replace if necessary. Also don't forget to put a dab of moly based grease or assembly lube on the contact points to help with friction until oil pressure is built up.

[djphix]

I'm in the process of bleeding my cooling system now. Everything went back together relatively easily, although I should have torqued the rear exhaust manifold bolts from underneath to save time.


My SES light came on almost immediately, which leads me to think that I missed a wire harness. It did start right up and runs more quietly than it did before, so I'm hoping that's a good sign.

My head gaskets look a lot worse than cdru's.

The use of liquid wrench on the exhaust manifold studs and the crossover pipe saved all but the 3 studs I didn't spray. If you're not the type that likes drilling studs out, use the liquid wrench.

If anyone has any specific questions, feel free to PM me. It's all still pretty fresh in my head.