First Time Muscle Car Buyer

[MrPbody]

No, I was not dropped on my head when I was a baby. In fact, I was repairing those POS cars when YOU were a baby... (if you were even born yet).
The reason you see more rusted out GM cars is because you still SEE GM cars from that era. If you go to a muscle car gathering, you will see MANY street-driven (daily) GM cars. You might see a few Chrysler and Ford products as drivers, but most are race cars or trailer queens.
Bleedodge, it's obvious where your loyalty lies (name...), but realism is an important aspect of successful trips into car-land. As a certified mechanic and machinist for the past 30 years, I've seen more of EVERY kind of car, than any hobbyist sees one of in their whole life. My statements are based on experience, not emotion.
As I said, the Mopes have great drivetrains. The package they're enclosed in leaves much to be desired. You will find the vast majority of professional technicians agree. The GM cars outnumber the Fords and Dodges by such a wide margin, it isn't debatable.
Ghost74Se, you don't EVEN want to know what most techs think of that post-69 Mope you have...
If I allowed MY emotions to make recommendations, rather than logic, I would tell everyone to forget EVERY other car, and drive a GTO. Nothing else comes close, as far as a nice car goes. Instead, I recommend logical and realistic approaches to building cars. If you prefer the Dodge, that's wonderful. But just because YOU prefer it, doesn't make it a good, or even smart choice. It makes it an emotional choice. By your own words, there weren't as many made. Why do you suppose that is? It's because the buying public KNEW they were in regression, and chose to buy the more progressive cars. It wasn'tr but a few years later, we, the taxpayers, had to help "bail" Chrysler out of a financial situation they brought upon themselves, just to keep them from going away. As for a small Dodge in an A-body being faster than a big block car? Now who sounds like they were dropped on their head? My GTO NEVER got beat by a small Mope in ANY car, and I raced MANY. I even remember a '70 'Cuda with a 340 6-Pack in it one night, that claimed the car ran low 13s (early '70s, that was FAST) and had NEVER been beat by a GTO. Well, my 13.63 GTO smoked him three out of three. He finally ran out of excuses and exclaimed, "That GTO is fast!" I raced every Road Runner, Charger R/T, Super-B, I came across. I DID get embarrassed one night by a '69 GTX. It was no small block... But no Mope with 3 carbs ever beat The Judge, either, when I owned it. That included a few 440s. Only the Magnum (440) and Hemi were SERIOUS contenders. A 340 Dart was breakfast. The Hemis were so rare, nobody paid them much mind. If they DID show up to play, and had street tires, they couldn't hang, either. Traction with a Hemi and street tires is a myth.
Now remember, when you take shots at me, I'm not one of your bench-racing internet know-it-alls. I build engines for a living (including some pretty nasty Dodges). My comments about the bodies are based on West Coast experience. We never saw the GM cars rusting out in California, but DID see a few Mopes falling apart after only a few years, and no exposure to salt. Since moving to the East Coast, I see ALL of them rusting out. Exposure to salt on the winter roads makes the reasons obvious. I saw many a Ford die an early death out West, as well.

[soxs]

Aw sheesh pbody....Exactly what goat are you talking about? I'm talking about a street race, stop light to stop light...whats that in a city...an 1/8th? The 340 stock A body dart or cuda would wup up on a stock goat in a street race. I remember the 69+ goats and they were dogs...sorry.....

[PeteRR]

Originally Posted by soxs

Aw sheesh pbody....Exactly what goat are you talking about? I'm talking about a street race, stop light to stop light...whats that in a city...an 1/8th? The 340 stock A body dart or cuda would wup up on a stock goat in a street race. I remember the 69+ goats and they were dogs...sorry.....

The only Ponchos I ever saw street racing were Trans Ams.

P-body in this area Mopars are well represented at the strip and at car shows.

[MrPbody]

Soxs, I'm talking about light-to-light racing in San Bernardino and Riverside in the early '70s. And again, no small Mope ever came close. Apparently you're confusing Pontiacs with BBCs. Pontiacs are notorious for their low-end torque and ability to move a heavy car quickly. GTO did NOT earn the reputaton from losing. It's the big block Chevelles that needed the longer run to really shine. Their top-end power is second to none in street cars.

PeterRR, You show your age! That is, by the time T/As became popular, the GTO was already a bit of a collector car, and thus raced on the street much less. And your comment about the Mopars being well represented at shows and races aequately illustrates my point about race cars and trailer queens.

This was not intended to be a debate over which cars were faster or better, it was to help a newbe out, and to get into performance cars with a sense of realism and attainable goals. Once in, and the bug bites, the sky (or the budget) is the limit.
Regardless of brand loyalty, experience MUST override emotion, if the project is to be successful. If, in your town, GTOs were considered "dogs", well, either nobody that knew how to drive one, or build one, is "from aroud there...". We get a significant number of superstitious freaks that still believe 327 is the killer engine of all time. We also hear from the same crowd, how "you can't make a Pontiac run, gotta use a Chevy". We know this to be false, and THAT statement is NOT an opinion, OR debatable. Pontiacs, like the Mopes, can be built to be VERY stout contenders. It's all in the approach. Try to build a high revver, and gear it to the teeth, and expect a blown engine. Build it to it's strong point, and all the rest of you guys HATE us...

[71Cnet]

after reading this forum i just have to say every body has their own opinion. i myself am a mopar man. but i do believe that a car is only as good as the mechanic that works on and the person that drives it. in a sense i can agree with all of you guys. i love dodge and i will push anybody to buy a mopar over anything else but i will also tell them the strong and weak points of the mopar. i will also tell them about gm products and ford just to keep poeple open minded to different ideas and thats all this guy was looking for. people build cars differently. not every body builds a muscle car to run it a round and try to beat everybody else on the road. some build them for race, to cruise and some to collect. so just cause somebody has a gto doesnt mean he goes around a tries to be the fastest thing on the block. and depending on your area depends on how many of a certain company is represented. i deffinetly think you guys miss the point of this one. just to let you guys know im not trying to offend anyone. htere are getting less and less old muscle on the road lets not try to descourage anyone. have a nice day.

[soxs]

I'm still waiting to find out what goat pbody is talking about. There was never a street fast goat ever made. What year and what engine? It sure wasnt the 400. A judge was a laughing stock. They copied Mopars out there colors and all they were was a tempest or le mans with a stupid looking wing.

[MagicRat]

Originally Posted by soxs

I'm still waiting to find out what goat pbody is talking about. There was never a street fast goat ever made. What year and what engine? It sure wasnt the 400. A judge was a laughing stock. They copied Mopars out there colors and all they were was a tempest or le mans with a stupid looking wing.

This is an ignorant statement and I mean this in a constructive way.

The Judge NEVER was intended to be an all conquoring performance car..........it was about sales and market share, to wrap all the decent performance and image options in one relatively inexpensive package that anyone could buy. It achieved it's goal for decent performance and decent sales.

The truly fast GTO's were like the Hemis......they were not cheap nor were they widely available. You had to KNOW what to order.....to get the Ram Air IV and have enough brains to throw some headers and slicks on it. You had to KNOW how to order a Royal Bobcat.....and if you didn't know, well you didn't get to go fast.

[GothicWombat]

well i do agree with pbody that it would probably be easier to find a low cost chevy or pontiac because there are more of them around, what i don't agree with is why, if you look at the best selling muscle cars page then you'll see that they're all ether pontiac or chevy except for the 69 roadrunner, thats why there are more, because more were made and sold, this doesn't make them better in fact if you look at the fifty fastest cars you'll see mopar very well represented while a gto just barely makes it at number 47.
but cnet is right, there are getting less and less old cars of any make so we should be glad he wants to restore one and not go by a *shudder* honda

[MrPbody]

My car was a '70 Judge, 366 horse Ram Air III car. 4-speed and 3.55 gears, it went 13.63 @ 101 in March of 1973, at Orange County Raceway in Southern California. That was stock as a rock, including the G70-14 tires. This is NOT an opinion...
When looking at lists of "fastest" cars, one-offs and VERY special cars are included. Let's make the rule, "the fastest attainable cars". While there were no "Super Stock Special" GTOs or Firebirds, like there were Darts and 'cudas, the average driver actually found driving the streets, aren't near as quick in the Mopar or Ford or Chevy crowds. I point to Stock and Super Stock classes in NHRA. I was at Indy this past September. In EVERY class where the Pontiac was legal, it WON its' class. EVERY one. This states quite clearly, when appples-to-apples, Pontiac is the Chief! Of course, you can state a Hemi Cuda will beat a 400 GTO. No shit? Sure, but a 383 Road Runner wouldn't TOUCH a 400 GTO (what it was aimed at, and imitated). Let's keep the comparisons equal. Why do you think the only car in the recent "Muscle Car Shootout" with a smaller engine than GTO, was a Rambler? Because they no longer exist as a company. That's why. A Ram Air IV '70 GTO would have shown MUCH better against all the monsters they pitted the poor little Pontiac against. They had to dig into Ford's VERY rare performance cars, to compete. And I do agree, they should have repaired the clutch and tune on the Dodge. But it was a Hemi. Hardly a run-of-the-mill "muscle car".
Did they really sell more than 76,000 Road Runners in '69? I knew there were a bunch, but didn't know that! (That's how many '69 GTOs they made...and that does NOT include the other Pontiac A-bodies, LeMans and Tempest). And soxs, GTO was NOT LeMans or Tempest. It was a separate model in its' own rite, just like Road Runner and GTX. Were they Belvederes? I don't THINK so.

All the Pontiac-bashing is nothing new. Ever since 1962, Chevrolet has led the charge to discredit them. In '62, Pontiac won 33 of 36 races in NASCAR Grand National (now called Nextel Cup) and nearly every NHRA Super Stock and A/FX national meet. You see, Pontiac "pioneered" A/FX and dominated it. This is where the Super Stock, Pro Stock and F/C classes all evolved from. Ever heard of a "swiss cheese" Catalina"?

And how many Fords or Chevys does it take to beat a MOPAR? The world may never know... But... It only takes one Pontiac (Greg Anderson, NHRA Pro Stock CHAMP, 2004). Yes, I saw him put the factory-backed Hemi Pro Stock on the trailer for the win at Indy. Did I mention he's won more national meets in one season than anyone in history? And for the nay-sayers, yes, it's a Big Chief engine, and not a "traditional" Pontiac V8. But it took Pontiac Engineering Division to make the BBC a Hemi-killer (Big Chief heads are the key, and they came from Pontiac, not Chevy or Olds)
Lastly, and then I'll end my involvement in this thread, what was the LAST NHRA fuel-class champ that wasn't a Hemi? Big block Chevy? Nope. Ford? Nope. RB? Nope. Arnie the Farmer with his "Tameless Tiger" funny car, Pontiac-powered! 1971....


So go ahead, Pontiac-bash all you want. It's just sour grapes... We're used to it. Eat your hearts out!

[soxs]

I'm not even going to read all your post....wether you ran a 13.63 is irrelevant. And i'm not bashing pontiacs. They ruled the track UNTIL a squad of gentlemen called " The Ramchargers" came along and laid waste to the Pontiacs and anything else. Thats another subject. I'm saying a stock 340 dart or A body cuda would wup up on your Judge on the street. By this i mean stop light to stop light, or can you remember? They would also spank hemis and 440s. Sure if your at the strip a BB should run down a SB.
You still havent said what size motor. And how was the 366hp calculated and the weight of the goat?

[MrPbody]

If you knew anything at all about Pontiacs, you would know, there was only ONE 366 horse production engine, and it was a 400. And, if you were to read the posts more thoroughly, you would see that I WAS talking about light-to-light racing.

There are many myths and superstitions in our hobby. Some are based in fact, and some come from under the shade tree. Street racing in the early '70s is not unlike halucinegenic drugs and top fuel dragsters. You can read about it all week. You can see it in the movies and on TV. But until you've actually BEEN there, you have no idea... Unfortunately, there are no time machines that actually work.
Some of those myths include small block cars beating up on muscle cars. I would love to have an extra dollar for every 273, 289, 302 (inc. Chevy), 340, 350, 351, 360, 383, 390, 396, 402, 403, 455 Olds, 455 Buick, 440-6, that I took money from because "Pontiacs don't run". You'ld be amazed, how the element of surprise can work in your favor when racing. If your opponent thinks your car is a turd, and it isn't, he is lost! I say again, zero 340s EVER beat me, in three years of "frantic" racing. Of course, we're talking no excuses, run-wutcha-brung (and don't leave your good parts at home) street racing, in the heart of the hot rod world. I did get beat now and then, but maybe 1 out of 10, regardless of make. I even beat up on some other GTOs!
And soxs, I DID notice how you side-stepped all the current facts about NHRA racing...
Ramchargers battled it out with Ford and Chevy for second place until the "great edict" of 1963, when GM pulled ALL the funding for racing. Once the Pontiacs and Chevys were gone, it left Ford versus Dodge. Same was true in stock car racing. GM dropped out of the race while on top.

[soxs]

Your obviously full of yourself as witness to your posts. Was it too many hits of LSD or Agent Orange?....I dont give a rats ass about current NHRA racing. Your saying you beat up on everthing and i'm callin you a liar. You say its 366hp....thats what pontiac rated it at. Obviously with all your means you never had it dyno'd yourself? I'm telling you no way you beat well i should hope you could beat 273s and 289s they were slow. Your dillusional. You say it had 366hp and dont leave your good parts at home. Does that mean it had more hp?...Im talking stock idiot...If you car ran 13.6s it was not stock and thats the bottom line wacko. As far as the Ramchargers ,they put pontiac on the shelf, as well as chev and ford.

[MrPbody]

Yes, I know you're a talking stock idiot... PAY ATTENTION!! Current information is the best thing we have.
"Run wathca brung, and don't leave your good parts at home" is one of the oldest sayings (and most applicable) in street racing. If you don't comprehend the meaning, maybe someone who is old enough to remember the '70s can explain it to you.
Of course you wouldn't care about current conditions, because it interferes with your perception of reality.

All of the statements I've made about the history of racing, and Pontiac versus Dodge (a rivalry that never really existed, due to the aforementioned GM ban on funds for racing) are easily verified through various history sources. You know, like a LIBRARY...

The Judge was sold with a base engine of 400 CID, rated at 366 horsepower. This engine was known as "Ram Air III". It was in '69 and '70 Ram Air cars. It is also the base engine for the '69 and '70 Trans Ams, though they were rated a bit lower (by limiting throttle opening) due to the lighter weight of the F-bodies and insurance regulations and policies. Again, ALL of this is easily verifyable.

Stop relying on words of old-timers that may or may not have been there, and read a bit. You'll see, I'm not as dillusional as you think. In fact, you'll find I'm not nearly as dillusional as YOU ARE, thinking no GTO could beat a 340. Or thinking a Chevelle 454 is a "boat anchor". Or even thinking 273s were slow. Actually, I saw some pretty impressive 273s at the track. But they had no low-end ass, therefore not good street engines for performance.

As for lying, well, most of us old farts have learned long ago, life is too short to lie. It makes it hard to remember what you told people... The car went 13.63 @ 101 in March of '73 at Orange County, STOCK AS A ROCK. No go have another beer, and think of something more intellegent to say.

[soxs]

Dont you have anything else to do except spread your BS all over this board? That was the 454 chebelle nick name dufous, a fuchin boat anchor. Now for the 273s i digress they were quick in a light car. Where do you get the drivel they had no low end idiot? Where were they fast then? At the end of the track? Fuck your hat badge Red Nigger luver...Your a liar....Dont forget to use some big words doofasaurous.

[PeteRR]

Color me skeptical, but high-13s on bias ply tires with a 4-speed and a stock motor? The 440-6Pak cars did that but they were also conservatively rated at 375 hp. Were you using slicks? I like Pontiacs, especially the 65-67 GTOs, but I also think they were overrated.