are D's stronger then B's

[Miataracer]

i agree there is much more to how much boost an engine will hold before it blows. it is NOT all based off of psi. it has to do with the compressor efficiency and intercooling and fuel management and knock and... and... and


one of the biggest killers is going to be knock. how much air are you throwing in there? how hot is it? is there enough fuel to mix with that air? where is the timing set?

**example**

two b18b's totally identical as far as engine goes


#1 b18b is set up with a little turbo at 10 psi running out of the top of its efficiency range. it has too small of an intercooler. the motor has stock timing and crappy fuel management that is causing the engine to run lean. what you will end up with here is a hot air intake charge that is mixed with not enough fuel and the temps are just cylinder generally too high. it will have predetonation (knock) and will eventually blow the hell up! be it hole in the piston or broken rod or broken ring lands or spun rod bearing, etc. it will not last very long


#2 b18b is set up with a larger turbo at 10 psi running right in its efficiency range, it has an appropriate sized intercooler. the engine has hondata, or AEM, or Uberdata or whatever. so it is tuned correctly with good timing and the right amount of fuel. this engine will have a cooler intake air temp, and the proper fuel to mix with it. this will keep cyl. temps down and majorly cut back on predetonation. this engine will last a lot longer than engine #1

[lkailburn]

just to clarify something tho on what miataracer is saying.. a bigger turbo will not be safer than a smaller one on the same pound, but i think what he's trying to get at is that a well tuned setup with a properly sized turbo running in its efficiency range is the best way to go

[Miataracer]

yeah i should have gone into a bit more detail though. basically what i was getting at is you can't just say a b18b can handle 12 psi and a b18c1 can only handle 9 etc. because there is a lot more detail in it than that.

[eckoman_pdx]

Originally Posted by Miataracer

yeah i should have gone into a bit more detail though. basically what i was getting at is you can't just say a b18b can handle 12 psi and a b18c1 can only handle 9 etc. because there is a lot more detail in it than that.

True, when many people say a B18B1 can handle 12psi on stock internals, they forget the last part..when tuned correctly with the proper set-up...I.E...proper sized intercooler, fuel managment, Hondata, uberdata, etc. Basically, as you said, it comes down to preventing knock and detonation.

Same with a GSR. A Higher C/R GSR typically handles less boost than a lower comp B18B1 due to the higher C/R, which creates higher cylinder pressure off bost to begin with (I know this isn't a great explantion, but it's 2:47am). There are ways to slightly lower the c/r though, like a thicker head gasket, etc. This can allow a good tuner to run a little more than someone else might be able to. Of course, this brings you closer to the limit. The closer to the limit you are, the less room for error you have before bad things occur.

Typically a b-series has better internals, so you have more room for error than with a d-series.

As was said though, PSI isn't all that a matters. More important is the goal HP. As was said, a small turbo way outside it's efficency range may not produce nearly the same airflow as a larger one inside the effiecency range. Also, you have to take into conisderation boost lag, and you'll want to size the turbo properly to get the best comprimse for your goals. On a low boost ball-bearing turbo, there's no reason you should have any noticable lag if you sized it right.

[lkailburn]

mm ball bearing turbo

another thing to keep in mind.. if you blow your d it will only cost you a few hundred to buy another and be back running.. where as a pretty b-series will not be so fun to replace if you blow it

[Beastiek2]

^^ excellent point D's are like toys so cheap.

[eckoman_pdx]

Very good point. However, if you put boost on a D-series, just remember that rods on standards civic SOHC D-series motors, unlike most Honda rods, are a fairly weak part. D16 rods suffer from skinny construction and from weak bolts.

As was already mentioned in here, stock D rods can only handle up to 200whp when tuned right, or 7500rpm, whichever comes first most of the time. However, a quick and cheaper junkyard upgrade is the rods form a 1986-1987 D16A1 Integra motor. Use the correct Integra bearing with this bearing when doing this "mod." These rods are somewhat stronger and an take up to 250whp when the motor is tuned right (remember, a properly tuned motor is always a must when pushing a motor, espeically when pushing it towards the limit). 1988-1989 Intrga D16A1 rods are not the same as the 86-87 version of the motor, the 88-89 ones are just as weak as standard D16 rods.

Also, the JDM 1985-1987 Civic and CRX ZC motors rod is also a bolt it to D16's. Like the 1986-87 Integra D16A1 rods, this is another "junkyard upgrade," slightly stronger than standard D16 rods. Again, like the 86-87 Integra rods, good to about 250whp if everything is tuned correct.

[honda_luvr_2000]

Originally Posted by eckoman_pdx

...rods on standards civic SOHC D-series motors, unlike most Honda rods, are a fairly weak part. D16 rods suffer from skinny construction and from weak bolts.

...stock D rods can only handle up to 200whp when tuned right, or 7500rpm, whichever comes first most of the time. However, a quick and cheaper junkyard upgrade is the rods form a 1986-1987 D16A1 Integra motor. Use the correct Integra bearing with this bearing when doing this "mod." These rods are somewhat stronger and an take up to 250whp when the motor is tuned right (remember, a properly tuned motor is always a must when pushing a motor, espeically when pushing it towards the limit). 1988-1989 Intrga D16A1 rods are not the same as the 86-87 version of the motor, the 88-89 ones are just as weak as standard D16 rods.

Also, the JDM 1985-1987 Civic and CRX ZC motors rod is also a bolt it to D16's. Like the 1986-87 Integra D16A1 rods, this is another "junkyard upgrade," slightly stronger than standard D16 rods. Again, like the 86-87 Integra rods, good to about 250whp if everything is tuned correct.

eckoman, u must have read honda/acura engine performance by mike kojima. damn good book. damn near word for word. just add quotes.

[eckoman_pdx]

Originally Posted by honda_luvr_2000

eckoman, u must have read honda/acura engine performance by mike kojima. damn good book. damn near word for word. just add quotes.

Stop picking on me becuase I have actually read up on info, researched it, and then given out the truthful and correct information I've learned. This is the second thread you have attempred to flame me in. In both cases the information I gave new info revevant to the thread and was correct information at that. I think I may have that book, sounds familer, along with about 10 or so others, not to mention hundreds of magiznes. I don't remeber what info I learned out of what book or magazine anymore. I remember terms like "junkyard upgrade," the information I read but not the source I got it from.I read a lot of stuff o long ago that I don't remeber where I read what. I am 25 years old and my civic was the first car I ever got way way back in the day (A 92 wasn't so old back then, hahahaha). I have been researching and reading on Civics for years. There's only so many times you can read information before you memorize it.

A very good book on motors that gets pretty techincal is either Honda Performance Builders Handbook volume 1 or How to Build Honda Horsepower. I'd have to pull them off the look at them so see which one I am thinking of. They all tend to run toghter after awhile. Anyways, regardless of where I learned the information origaninally, it's good info nonetheless that most people don't realize. Laughing and poking fun like that only serves to undermine perfactly good info. You could be right on the book I learned it from, then again maybe not. I'd have to pull them off the shelf and read em again to see. It doesn't matter where you learned it though. It matters if It's correct information or not. The information is good information regardless of where I learned it from originally.

Anyways, it's nice to see other people read books versus trusting everything they read online. Another very good book to check out and read is "How to make your car handle." I couldn't tell you who wrote it without going to look. I recommend reading that one. It should be required.

Watch who you flame. If you insist on going and pissing off vets, you'll find no one willing to give you advice when you need it.

But oh, thats right, it's better to be an asshole and flame than it is to actually give out correct helpful information to people who otherwise wouldn't know it .

[lkailburn]

i think he's just saying that you've learned so much you can almost spit it back out word for word. i don't think thats a bad think.. just goes to show ppl you know your shiz

[honda_luvr_2000]

yeah shit dude i was just kidding w/ u and complimenting on u knowing u'r shit unlike sum other people on this page. damn, easy man. learn how to take a compliment. notice the buddy icon???? IT'S LAUGHING

i just read that particual book about 3 months ago and was like damn! sumone else knows sum stuff too. i had no intent of pissing u off, or saying u didn't know anything. it's obvious to me that u do, and i was tryin to point out that u did. that was all.

[eckoman_pdx]

Originally Posted by honda_luvr_2000

yeah shit dude i was just kidding w/ u and complimenting on u knowing u'r shit unlike sum other people on this page. damn, easy man. learn how to take a compliment. notice the buddy icon???? IT'S LAUGHING

just read that particual book about 3 months ago and was like damn! sumone else knows sum stuff too. i had no intent of pissing u off, or saying u didn't know anything. it's obvious to me that u do, and i was tryin to point out that u did. that was all.

It's all good, no hard feelings. Thanks for the compliment. The computer I was using blocks out smilies, so I couldn't see that part...I can use em and post em from that computer but I can't see em. My girls computer (which I was using last night) is funky like that. Heck, that computer blocks out aviatars. When I've posting from home I can see stuff. Thanks for the compliment.

[honda_luvr_2000]

lol no prob man, i know stuff duzn't come across the same on the pc as it duz in convo so i understand. if u catch my other responce in the crvtec it's a little more in depth.

[eckoman_pdx]

Originally Posted by honda_luvr_2000

lol no prob man, i know stuff duzn't come across the same on the pc as it duz in convo so i understand. if u catch my other responce in the crvtec it's a little more in depth.

I read it and responded. Just try and be more clear on what you mean when you type, since things don't always come across on the computer the same as in regular converstion. Withouth vocal tone and body langauge, it's much easier for words on a computer to come across differently than what you ment.

Lets stop high-jacking this poor guys thread now and let it return to it's purpose, lol. We can contiune the rest of our conversation in pm-land.

[honda_luvr_2000]

another thing to go w/ the putting the 86-87 D16a1 rods and pistons into another D16... make to sure to have the crank rebalanced w/ them so u don't rattle it to death. other than that, eckoman covered it all. for using honda oem parts anyway. in the end, i think it can be agreed that the b-series has the edge, but it can be a close race w/ the stock b16 and an oem modified d16.