Fords, lincons, mercs...tinny?

[MrPbody]

Well, MR, I don't have production figures, but I lived in San Jose in 1971, and worked with some guys employed there at the Ford assembly plant. They complained all the time about how engineering would cut their throats for a nickel, and how the new ('72) T-Bird was going to be a POS because of it. They were already cutting production steps, and the car hadn't yet been released. I may be assuming (always dangerous) that that meant THEY were currently working on the car.
I did the front end in a good friend's '68 2-door T-Bird about 8 years ago. That was the last time I was under one. It had no rails. In fact, it appeared (I didn't check part numbers) to have the very same front suspension as the Torino, not the full size. Again, I could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time...
The local circle track racers here that build "modifieds" are always looking for '67-'76(?) full size Fords and Mercs for the front half of the frame. Never any mention of T-Birds.
As for the GTO vs. the T-Bird, if you were to eliminate the Offy intake and the little carb, add a factory iron intake ('67-'72) and a well built Q-Jet, the performance gap would have been FAR greater.
I was a mechanic in those days, too. Today, I am an ASE Master machinist (engine builder). I gave up working the line as my hands and my back couldn't take it (heavy line, front end and brakes, in dealerships). The machine shop is a lot more body-friendly, and more "brain work", less "back work".
My shop builds custom, racing and restoration engines, with a few tractors thrown in to keep me sharp... My personal specialty is the Pontiac. It still amazes me, after so many years, they (GTOs) still get no respect! They held their own just fine at the last Indy Nationals. There's quite a following, and it's growing. Parts are back! That tends to make the Chevy boys nervous. There were only 10 more Ford-powered cars at the nats than Pontiac-powered (not including the modern "Pontiacs", known as "Big Chief"). What's up with Ford? Time has proven the pushrod engine to be superior in drag racing applications, yet, there's no competitive Ford pushrod engine. Even Dodge has gone back to it for power production. (I can hear all the 4.6 afficianados now... Can we put a blower on the new GTO?)
It is not my intent to be right all the time. It is also not my intent to say I know more than anyone else. I simply share my experience. Since nobdy's perfect, I stand corrected.

[MagicRat]

Hey, its fine to discuss on the internet, no harm done, and we all can make mistakes, and learn a bit too. If I knew everything, I wouldn't be on this site. I always appreciate the insight and knowledge of others
That T-Bird sounds like a '66 or earlier. The 67 to '69 had hidden headlights, a lot like a '68 Charger, and have very obvious frame rails.

As for your friends on the line, the manufacturers are always trying to shave corners in assembly. Freinds of mine work at both Toyota (Cambridge) and Chrysler (Brampton) and complain too, about how there is barely enough time to do a job right.

Those '72 to '76 T-Birds, if you recall, were radically different from the earlier ones, and were virtually identical to the Lincoln MkIV and Mk V.

All the performance of the '67 to 71's disappeared and the thing turned into a huge, fat pimpmobile. Truly offensive. I have a Lincoln MkV with a 460 which is not in any stretch of the imagination a drivers car (unless the driver is over 80 years old). It will quietly do 130 mph though. I like it because its a funky example of disco era excess.

My GTO is faster than stock with the current intake set up.
(Haha, yes maybe the stock set up was really screwed up!!)
However, it should be lots better than it is. I have had no time in the last 3 years to do anything to it, but some judiciuos tuning should help, hopefully this winter. Every single Holley I have ever worked with has been set up too rich from the factory. I have had lots of Holleys and they are starting to piss me off. Also, the heads should definitely come off and a thorough inspection should be done. I have a rebuilt 400 in the corner all ready to go; but I prefer to keep the original engine.

My '77 Trans Am had a similar set up, but with low compression 6X heads, Weiand dual plane intake and a Holley 750 carb. It ran like a scalded cat everywhere.

As for Pontiac engines, too bad the good ones have been out of production for 25 or more years. Anyone who knows engines just has to rebuild one to appreciate they are a big bore short stroke design with big unshrouded valves, just excellent for performance. It amazes me how many car enthusiasts just look at the name plate rather than appreciating the engines on their own merits.

As for pushrod engines, yes for many applications, pushrod engines have been replaced by OHC engines, with really soggy low end torque.
For example, what good is a high rev, high top end OHC engine in a truck or minivan, especially with an auto, where the engine revs stay below 3000 rpm, (where the engine has no power) unless you floor it?
Pepole criticised GM for hanging on to the 3800 V6 for so long, but its strong low end made it far better for many applications than OHC engines.

Also, these pushrod engines are amazingly compact and cheap to build by todays standards too. A SBC seems small compared to some rice rocket 3 liter V6.

Finally, I am surprised that the folks building modifieds want to use Ford front ends. I have always throught that Ford front suspensions and steering was a weak spot, compared with GM. I understand their engineering reason to use small control arms and radius rods, as it gives a better ride by allowing an extra amount of rubber damping for bumps, but that rubber mounted radius rod makes the Ford steering IMHO just that much less preciseas compared with GM.

[MrPbody]

MR, There's a new book out on the Pontiac. "How to Build Max-performance Pontiac V8s" by Jim Hand, published by SA Designs. It is the first comprehensive study on the Injun Engine since 1976 (HO Racing's book). There have been a couple others, but they were aimed at specific classes in racing (Pete McCarthy).
Pontiacs are BACK! And with a vengence. There are heads, blocks, cranks, stroker kits, Victor, and a new intake (Tomahawk) due to be released shortly. It's quite satisfying to see the Chevy boys run for cover when a good sounding/running Poncho shows up. Tuning to the torque, and gearing accordingly, are the "secrets" to a good Pontiac. Smokey Yunik said it best, refering to Pontiacs: "Don't REV it up, GEAR it up..." He was alluding to the tremendous low-end torque the intake port and long rod provide.
The modified guys use the Ford front section for a variety of reasons. The cars are very light (2,500 lbs.). The biggest factor is the "rear steer" of the steering arms. The supply of early F-body and X-body (Firebird/Camaro and Nova) subframes is drying up. People still GIVE the big Fords away. Stock car racers like as many of the critical components (like steering) to be INSIDE the frame rails, in the case of the all-too-frequent crashes they must endure.

[MagicRat]

Of course, I never considered the advantage of the steering location. The last sub frame I did was a '68 Camaro sub in a '53 Chrysler (with a Pontiac engine!!) Quite a combination.
I think the new enthusiasm for Pontiacs (Buick and Olds too) is the same supply problem. With fewer affordable Chevys left to save, people look towards other projects.
Smokey was right about the gears. My GTO had 3:73's (in a bent axle) I swapped in a 3:08 for better drivability. It just seems to fit the car's characteristics a bit better.

[blight]

there is just sooooo much info here this should almost be stickied.

[MagicRat]

Originally Posted by blight

there is just sooooo much info here this should almost be stickied.

stickied?

[MrPbody]

stickied? hmmm...

The interest in Pontiacs is not new. Actually, since the mid-80s, when the muscle car resto craze began, GTO and Riviera have been at the top of the list. What IS new, are the release of real racing parts for the Pontiac, not seen in 20 years.
This might shed some light:
When I put in my order with SA Designs (publisher of the Hand book), I was among the early "pre-release" lucky dogs. As a contributor (I wrote the chapter on building your shortblock), I was offered an early order and a "special" price. The man I spoke to, wanted to know "what's up with you Pontiac people?" He said the book was selling faster than any book they had EVER printed (they've already authorized a second printing, less than a month after release), except the newly released book on the 4.6 Ford, a CURRENT race engine. He commented the Pontiac had been out of production for over 25 years, yet it seemed to be among the most popular to build for performance. He was at a loss to explain it.
So, I asked him what he thought about the Pontiac. Did he believe Pontiacs were like Olds and Buick? It didn't click. I said "You know, "point provers", "also rans"...? His reply was "Well, yah!". I suggested he read the book. Pontiac's history in racing is actually older and no less distinguished than Chevrolet. And when a good running Poncho shows up at the races, the Chevy boys start getting a little edgy. In short, Pontiacs MAKE POWER. It was an excellent design for a street engine from the beginning. GTOs did NOT get a reputation for losing.
Edelbrock made the same marketing error when they released the Pontiac head. They thought they MIGHT sell a few hundred pairs, making it a bit risky to spend the R&D money, but they WERE getting a lot of requests. Well, they were behind in production for the first two years, having drastically underestimated the demand. They've caught up, but are cranking them out at a feverish pace. Another common misconception about the Pontiac. From '67 to '79, there was only one GM engine (not family, but CID within a family) that was produced in higher volume than 400 Pontiac. That would be the 350 Chevy. So, there's LOTS of 400s still out there, just waiting to be "uprisen..." (yes, I made that word up. Argh! Argh! Humor...)
With the muscle car racing craze, it's unAme
rican to use a Chevy motor in a GTO, so there was the need for good performance parts for the traditional Pontiac. The result has been a flurry of developemnt. Some is based on old technology, but the most promising stuff is coming from the Pontiac community, itself. There are now no less than 4 different companies making heads, two making blocks, three making cranks, and a boatload of cams, intakes (and another new one coming shortly, known as Tomahawk), exhaust, etc. Yup, we in the Pontiac "family" are very excited about the future (and the present!). Injuns are on the warpath!