Evo 8, the US, and older Evo's

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Originally Posted by myrage

you may know alot about the earlier 4g63's, but the latter evo 4+ especially the evo 8's 4g63 is alot different, yes same block but nothing else is the same. boost is free to raise, wont cost a cent, we have 98octane pump gas here, and yes it is very possible to get a low 12 from an evo 8 with just exhaust and filter, hell i have a mate with a 1.8l lancer GSR 4wd, pod, zaust and boost and he done 12.3 down the 1/4! oh btw, your US evo 8 is detuned compared to ours :P

**So they're a ralli car, don't do much ralley driving on the street.**

who said they're a ralli car? i said they are 'based' on the ralli cars!

you are still NOT going to get 40 HP from an exhaust and filter. You HAVE to do something else.

And you are not going to run a low 12 with a US EVO with just an exhaust and filter. That's just plain stupid. You have to up the boost along with the exhaust and filter.

[EvoCrazy]

Not really, because the Evos turbo is pretty big. With an exhaust on a turbo of that size I expect quicker spool.

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Originally Posted by EvoCrazy

Not really, because the Evos turbo is pretty big. With an exhaust on a turbo of that size I expect quicker spool.

It's a 16g basically.

Your not going to see 40 HP with an exhaust and filer only.

And the twin scroll design spools up fast anyhow, so you're not going to gain anything there either.

40 HP with just those 2 mods is simply very wishful thinking.

Now turn up the boost and then we're talking. But you could do that without the exhaust mod.

[EvoCrazy]

No exhaust mod? Thats one of the most important things on a turbo charged car like that. Think about it, more flow, means less back pressure to slow down the turbo, and then you can improve spools.

[10.5sec92AWDTALON]

Originally Posted by EvoCrazy

No exhaust mod? Thats one of the most important things on a turbo charged car like that. Think about it, more flow, means less back pressure to slow down the turbo, and then you can improve spools.

That whole point about exhaust is SERIOUSLY overplayed to a point on turbo cars.
Yes there's good gains. Anyone done any testing? I have.

How fast do you think you could go say on the HIGHLY restrictive BONE STOCK exhaust on a 1992 AWD Talon?

I ran a 13.1 with the 14b turbo through a BONE STOCK factory exhaust.

I then bolted on a ported 2G exh. mani, fully ported O2 housing, O2 back mandrel bent 3" exhaust, no cat, no muffler, it only trimmed off 2 tenths.

Now...I upped the boost from 17 to 22+, that trimmed off another 5 tenths!

I have to stress how restrictive the stock exhaust was on those cars, yet opening it up did very little all things considered untill I was pushing some serious boost.

I'm not saying exhaust does not help, but I used to race DSM folks cars with full Bushur stage one mods with my Talon with the stock exhaust and I was consistently beating them. Stage 1 back then had a full 2.5 mandrel bent exhaust.

Once you get into the low 12's and below exhaust plays a big role. but high 12's low 13's, it's no where near as big of a deal as folks claim. They just want to sell exhaust systems.

[EvoCrazy]

You put a bigger turbo on a bone stock exhaust? Damn, from what I know thats not only bad for the engine, and turbine, your turbo wont perform at its peek like that. Maybe your right about not getting 40 hp with an exhaust and air filter, but trust me in all turbo cars exhaust flow plays a huge role. Besides, the Evo's turbo is bigger than the Talons, so maybe thats what it is. If they are different, you will get different power gains.

[10.5sec92AWDTALON]

Originally Posted by EvoCrazy

You put a bigger turbo on a bone stock exhaust? Damn, from what I know thats not only bad for the engine, and turbine, your turbo wont perform at its peek like that. Maybe your right about not getting 40 hp with an exhaust and air filter, but trust me in all turbo cars exhaust flow plays a huge role. Besides, the Evo's turbo is bigger than the Talons, so maybe thats what it is. If they are different, you will get different power gains.

No, I didn't put a bigger turbo in with the stock exhaust. I ran the 13.1 and the 12.4 with the small stock 14b turbo. THe stock EVO exhaust is reasobably designed for the 16g turbo it has. An exhaust swap will not net 40HP.In fact I'm willing to bet if you just had a dump pipe off the turbo and no exhaust back system at all you still would not get 40 hp JUST from that mod.

Exhaust only plays a huge role once you have enough intake flow, exit flow is NEVER as a big of a problem as intake flow is.

[EvoCrazy]

Yea in N/A cars. In turbo charged ones I think they need good back flow, because thats what the turbo runs off of, exhaust flow. If you got pressure in the back, some of it will slow down the spool. I dont know about the 40 hp with the exhaust part, I was told that by one of the guys at Lancershop.com

Oh by the way, thanx for not trying to bash me. Ususally when people argue, they start cursing, owning people, and I'm glad we got trhough this argument without that. Thanx for staying mature.

[VQuick]

Originally Posted by diegoaccord

Does anyone think that this the most overrarted car ever. So why is the Evo 8 so fucking special?

It's the latest model in a line of very competent performance cars.

The combination of an AWD Mitsubishi with the 4G63 has been available in America sine 1990 in the form of the Eclipse GSX, and Talon TSi, and the 92 Galant VR-4, so again, why has such a big deal been made over the Evo 8?

The US hasn't seen a new DSM since 1999. The Evo is new, more sophisticated, and it's all we've got.

Okay... Now over the history of the car, it has evolved, as it's namesake. Until the Evo VII. The Evo was designed to compete in WRC, which all 6 original Evo's did well, especially the III, IV, V, and VI. Then came the Evo VII, which of course has the chassis of the Evo 8. It failed at WRC, and Tommi Makenin left the team. They even sat 2003 out working out bugs in the CT9A.

The Evo VII car was not up to full WRC spec, but Mistubishi decided to campaign it anyway. Basically, it was built for a different class.
The 2004 season is pretty much a year of testing. I don't even think they are entering all of the events.

"The car is actually less potent than previous models."

That was said by US magazines. But I guess since it was "yet another JDM super car we wouldn't have" they could pick it apart. But once the car was slated to reach the US, things changed immediately. The Evo 8 is the exact car as the Evo VII that they slammed, yet they praised the 8. WTF? Just becuase we get it here...

Who cares what the Americans said. The Europeans got most versions of the Evo, from the dealer if not the grey market, so they were able to compare the VII to previous models. They loved the VII when it came out. They love the VIII as well.
There's even a British magazine named evo. The magazine is devoted to cars that enjoyable to drive like the Evo, which the editors admit, provided inspiration for the name name.
The Evo VIII is different from the VII, and the US version has even more differences. Several changes were made to the VIII to make it more practical for the US market such as the longer nose(made room for US bumper reinforcements) and the larger fuel tank(range was a complaint even from the Europeans on previous Evos, including the VII. Americans would have gone nuts). The US model also did not recieve the six-speed transmission, active center differential or the super active yaw control system that were available on the VIII from other markets.

As I stated the Evolution VI Extreme is IMO the best Evo.

If, according to Mitsubishi, a standard Evo VII can beat a 330hp Evo 6.5 Makkinen Edition around the 'Ring, I don't see why a 320hp Evo VIII FQ320 MR couldn't beat the 340hp Evo VI Extreme.

The Best WRX is the STi 22B, which is of the GC8(K) chassis, niether of which are in production, meaning the WRX, and Evo are PAST their primes.

Just because the manufacturer hasn't released anything better does not mean that a model is past it's prime. Did people say that about the Corvette when, after several years, the C5 Z06 finally matched the output of the C4 ZR-1?

As far as new models, the USDM STi is a better car than the Evo 8, but most magazines/people are claiming the Evo better because the WRX has been here for 2 years, and they're still in shock. I guarantee that if the Evo was here before the STi, the STi would get consistently rated better.

Do you have any concrete reasons for one car being better than the other, besides just assuming the journalists are biased based on which came first?
Wasn't the Evo released before the STi anyway? Weren't the Evos 2003 models while the STis were 2004s?

Besides, any way you look at it, a AWD drivetrain, and 4G63 has been here since 1990, and the Lancer Evo bodied car have been here since the 92 Miarge, just not in a Lancer Evolution package till last year.

The Evos(especially IV+) use a more sophistcated awd system than the DSMs in the US. The 4G63 for the Evo is also built and equipped with different internals and turbos.
Using the formula you mentioned, the closest we had to an Evo in the past was the Galant VR-4. It probably didn't have the same power as the Evo at the time, however.

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It's not *that* much different a motor than the DSM motor was.

Different turbo???? So what. The 16g it's using(minus the twin scroll) is very similar to the 16g that has been out for years.

IN FACT...the DSM's were going to have the 16g stock then at the last minute the decision was changed and the 14b was put in. Early DSM's accordion air intakes even had to have a spacer put in as this pipe was originally sized for the 16g.

Folks like to make it look like this is a whole new ballgame with the 4g63,...but it really isn't that much different.

[10.5sec92AWDTALON]

Originally Posted by EvoCrazy

Yea in N/A cars. In turbo charged ones I think they need good back flow, because thats what the turbo runs off of, exhaust flow. If you got pressure in the back, some of it will slow down the spool. I dont know about the 40 hp with the exhaust part, I was told that by one of the guys at Lancershop.com

Oh by the way, thanx for not trying to bash me. Ususally when people argue, they start cursing, owning people, and I'm glad we got trhough this argument without that. Thanx for staying mature.

that's cool, we can discuss this rationally. It's an interesting issue that most folks don't see that facts clearly on.

I'm not againt exhaust mods, but I'm trying to show it's not THE big deal at certain lower boost levels that folks try to make it look like it is.

When I started modding my Talon 12 years ago I went the exact opposite route everone else did, I did exhaust LAST after several other key mods. And I consistent was faster that anyone else modding DSM's back then, dollar for dollar, mod for mod.

At one point I had the record for the fastest 14b powered DSM, (beating the LONG standing record of Marc Hallman 12.57 by almost a full 2 tenths)12.4@110 until the late Jeff Carpenter ran a 12.27,(with a lot more serious mods I might add).

[EvoCrazy]

Wow, you must have a fast talon. Got any pix of it?

[engineer]

Originally Posted by 10.5sec92AWDTALON

That whole point about exhaust is SERIOUSLY overplayed to a point on turbo cars.

I have to stress how restrictive the stock exhaust was on those cars, yet opening it up did very little all things considered untill I was pushing some serious boost.

as we all know, engines work as a sum of their parts. hey u only got 2 tenths from the exhaust, but 5 tenths from more boost. do u think u would have got the full potential (ie 5 tenths) of the extra boost without the exhaust. would u even consider running higher boost on a stock exhaust? i didn't think so. considering how turbocharged engines make power, it is obvious that the exhaust system is one of the fundamental and central components in making more power, and therefore should be upgraded accordingly. the reason u didnt get much gain from the exhaust is probably because of the stock engine tune. factory runs a low tune so u arent going to get much increase anyways. but to dismiss the significance of a proper exhaust on any car especially forced induction is just foolish. by the way on a side note, a [rich] guy here in melbourne bought a r34 GTR (he already owned one of australia's 3 fastest GTR's, and he had another 700hp street monster) anyways he bought an R34 and after adding only a nismo N1 cat back exhaust and an APEX'i Power FC (with a few hours of tuning time) he spun 360hp at the wheels. (and ran 12.1 seconds) now what did u say again?

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Originally Posted by engineer

as we all know, engines work as a sum of their parts. hey u only got 2 tenths from the exhaust, but 5 tenths from more boost. do u think u would have got the full potential (ie 5 tenths) of the extra boost without the exhaust. would u even consider running higher boost on a stock exhaust? i didn't think so. considering how turbocharged engines make power, it is obvious that the exhaust system is one of the fundamental and central components in making more power, and therefore should be upgraded accordingly. the reason u didnt get much gain from the exhaust is probably because of the stock engine tune. factory runs a low tune so u arent going to get much increase anyways. but to dismiss the significance of a proper exhaust on any car especially forced induction is just foolish. by the way on a side note, a [rich] guy here in melbourne bought a r34 GTR (he already owned one of australia's 3 fastest GTR's, and he had another 700hp street monster) anyways he bought an R34 and after adding only a nismo N1 cat back exhaust and an APEX'i Power FC (with a few hours of tuning time) he spun 360hp at the wheels. (and ran 12.1 seconds) now what did u say again?

DUH!!! DID YOU READ ONE SINGLE THING I POSTED? First off we're not talking about Skylines. Second tuning can add HUGE amounts of HP, especially on a Skyline. So that whole example is worthless. Am I supposed to be impressed with the Skylines 12.1? Hell I ran 12.4 with less than $1500 in mods over 7 years ago with my talon.

I said if you're running lower boost levels, or in high 12-13's exhaust is not as huge of a deal as some folks try to make it look. Either read the prior posts carefully and respond intelligently or butt out!

Obviously I saw the need for exhaust once I turned the boost from 17 to 22+, that's when the exhaust went on.

You basically miss my entire point. As you said "it is obvious that the exhaust system is one of the fundamental and central components in making more power, and therefore should be upgraded accordingly". Well no kidding. The key is ACCORDINGLY! A lot of folks put expensive exhausts on cars that don't really nedd them, they don't have the supporting mods to utilize it. Prettty simple stuff here.

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Originally Posted by EvoCrazy

Wow, you must have a fast talon. Got any pix of it?

Currently I'm running mid 10's at 135 mph+. I'll see what I have laying around for pics.