Tuned 4/6cyl vs V8

[Jabberwocky]

Displacement is a good thing. A v8 is basically 2 inline 4 engines.

The creme of the crop v8s are usually found in high end cars and exotics. Just look at the SL55 and it's big brother the SLR. Ferrari and Lamborgini both commonly use v8s. Cost is the main reason why alot of manufacturers make 4 bangers. It's much cheaper to make a 4 banger and boost the hell out of it. Making a v8 with the equivalent amount of technolgy probably cost near twice as much.

Most people won't want to hear this, but most 4 bangers won't hang with its v8 equivalent. Take the pushrod 2 liter engine from a cavalier, it won't be beating on a LS1. Take a 4G63t (arguably one of the best turbocharge 4 bangers) from an EVO and compare it to another 4 valve force induction engine like the one in the SLR (626 hp stock). When the level of technology in the engine is equivavlent, displacement almost becomes the sole deciding factor.

[Jimster]

Lamborghini don't anymore, they've not used a V8 for over a decade. They predominantly use V12's and the Gallardo uses a V10.


Anyway as for the V8 debate, mods'll be mods, but a GTR or Supra is just as easy to turn into a streetable 9/10 second car as anything else out there.

[Jabberwocky]

Show me a top fuel dragster that doesn't use at least a V8.

Production cars can only put down so much power. There is a point where having more power doesn't help much. That's why a 800hp supra and a 1200 hp diablo can run similar times. With the ability to put down power more effectively, like on a dragster. THe power difference is much more apparent.

I don't get this freaking small engine is good mentality. Stop looking at the world through narrow JDM elitist glasses. The Japanese aren't even close to making the world best cars. There are many more manufacturers out ther, and most supercars are coming out of Europe. ANd just because it is out of most of our price ranges, it doesn't mean that they don't exist.

[Jimster]

hmmm.......Of course Europe make the best supercars. Japan have only ever made a few: The NSX, the Supra Twin Turbo and the Skyline GTR V Spec. I have always acknowledged that Supercars are Europes domain.

HOWEVER small engines ARE good, they can Rev higher without running a rough idle (like a high revving big-block V8 usually does) and are lighter (usually), thus making them better to use if you want a Front-engined circuit car (Like I do), they can usually respond pretty well to modifications (Not as well as big blocks, but still reasonably well).

As for top fuel dragsters....Couldn't care any less, I hate drag racing it's an insult to a corner-carver like myself.

[3000ways]

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

Displacement is a good thing. A v8 is basically 2 inline 4 engines.

The creme of the crop v8s are usually found in high end cars and exotics. Just look at the SL55 and it's big brother the SLR. Ferrari and Lamborgini both commonly use v8s. Cost is the main reason why alot of manufacturers make 4 bangers. It's much cheaper to make a 4 banger and boost the hell out of it. Making a v8 with the equivalent amount of technolgy probably cost near twice as much.

Most people won't want to hear this, but most 4 bangers won't hang with its v8 equivalent. Take the pushrod 2 liter engine from a cavalier, it won't be beating on a LS1. Take a 4G63t (arguably one of the best turbocharge 4 bangers) from an EVO and compare it to another 4 valve force induction engine like the one in the SLR (626 hp stock). When the level of technology in the engine is equivavlent, displacement almost becomes the sole deciding factor.

Don't get me wrong, I know displacement makes it much easier to gain large amounts of power, but I just wanted people to know that now of days you can make big horsepower with smaller engines. As far as your 4G63T comparo to the SLR (by the way the SLR is my dream car so I'm not bashing it) I have no idea what you are trying to say, are you saying the EVO can't hit the same levels, ok wrong,
Turbo Trix EVO- 550AWHP
AMS EVO- 600AWHP
Boost Solutions EVO- 600AWHP
Dyno Flash EVO 550AWHP
There are many others, by the end of the summer there may be up to 10 EVOs in running in the 10s.

[3000ways]

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

The Japanese aren't even close to making the world best cars.

I hate to say this, but neighter are us Americans (please don't bring up aftermarket companies like Lingenfelter) the Europeans are way ahead.

[3000ways]

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

Show me a top fuel dragster that doesn't use at least a V8.

Production cars can only put down so much power. There is a point where having more power doesn't help much. That's why a 800hp supra and a 1200 hp diablo can run similar times.

As far as Top Fuel Dragster, it's not about they can't use a smaller engine, it's more about the mentality of that they don't want to use a smaller than a V8, sort of like, this is how it always has been why should things change. Don't get WONT mixed up with CANT.

Nothing wrong with more power, more power has never been a bad thing sorry, who ever told you more power doesn't help was wrong. Now your getting things mixed up, if two different cars one 800HP and one 1200HP run similiar times in the 1/4 mile it can be a number of factors, such as tuning, say the 800HP car could have been tuned for drag racing and the 1200HP tuned for top speed. Also there are things called bad tunes, and quality tunes. I believe the EVO is a perfect example, there are right now a lot of EVOs making a lot of power and aiming for the 10s, the first one to hit the 10s was Turbo Trix, who's EVO doesn't even make as much power as a lot of those other EVOs, just great freaking tuning. The point is more horsepower does help, but there are a lot of factors. Say for instance that drag car with 800HP went up against another drag car with 1200HP, I'm sure the 800HP car would have his ass handed to him.

[Mr Payne]

Originally Posted by 3000ways

I hate to say this, but neighter are us Americans (please don't bring up aftermarket companies like Lingenfelter) the Europeans are way ahead.

For the price point American vehicles are the best (performing), stock. (Well, at least from a major manufacturer...Z06, Viper, Ford GT)

[GSR VTEC 94]

Originally Posted by Mr Payne

For the price point American vehicles are the best (performing), stock. (Well, at least from a major manufacturer...Z06, Viper, Ford GT)

Yeah and you also get what you pay for. American vehicle quality sucks compared to Japanese and Europeans. Which is why I would spend more money for a import car just for the quality and reliability factor.
But hey, its a free country and you can get whatever you like.

[CrzyMR2T]

cars with smaller engines, or 4 cylinders, are usually lighter too, so they dont need to make as much power as some cars with v8s to get the same times.

[3000ways]

Originally Posted by Mr Payne

For the price point American vehicles are the best (performing), stock. (Well, at least from a major manufacturer...Z06, Viper, Ford GT)

Don't get quantity mixed up with quality, just because japanese manufactuers haven't created alot of big V8 sport cars doesn't mean they can't and if they did I firmly believe they would do it better. Just look at where the Japanese spend most of their money on, the 4-Cylinder and 6-Cylinder, they completely dominate that segment. Even the few V8's that the Japanese do make and sell in the United States are class leaders compared to their class competetion.

[Mr Payne]

Originally Posted by 3000ways

Don't get quantity mixed up with quality, just because japanese manufactuers haven't created alot of big V8 sport cars doesn't mean they can't and if they did I firmly believe they would do it better. Just look at where the Japanese spend most of their money on, the 4-Cylinder and 6-Cylinder, they completely dominate that segment. Even the few V8's that the Japanese do make and sell in the United States are class leaders compared to their class competetion.

I don't care what type of engine they have. As of right now the American manufacturers rule in all around performance. The Z06, Viper, and the GT leave no one doubting on who makes the fastest vehicles for those price points. However, the EVO/STi/Elise dominate the market which leads to the Z06. I like most consumers, judge the product within the price range I'm shopping in. Unlike most, in reference to cars, do not pay attention to cylinder configuration or displacement, assuming horsepower, torque and all other variables are equal.

[Mr Payne]

Originally Posted by GSR VTEC 94

Yeah and you also get what you pay for. American vehicle quality sucks compared to Japanese and Europeans. Which is why I would spend more money for a import car just for the quality and reliability factor.
But hey, its a free country and you can get whatever you like.

I'll focus on the Z06 because it will make your argument all the more ludicrious.

Porsche - The only thing you can get within the price range of a Z06 is a Boxster...you'd really get that over a Z06? Simply the straightline acceleration alone dwarfs the Boxster, that's not even mentioning grip.
Toyota - Don't even have a fast sports car.
Honda - S2K vs. Z06? Please, don't embarass yourself. NSX vs. Z06? Even better, The Z06 gets a 30K cost advantage over the NSX and STILL cleans its clock.
Nissan - 350Z vs. Z06? Still rapeage, but getting better I suppose. Your reliability will be comforting when you're pulling those .92G's & 14 second 1/4 miles.
BMW - M3 vs. Z06? Still rapeage, slightly less than the 350Z, but the M is still seeing tail lights.
General Motors - Oh wait, the maker of the Z06. 6th best ain't great I suppose. Not bad though. It's so easy to argue for the Z06 because it truly is the BEST car available in that price range (can EASILY be gotten for ~45K new).

So basically your argument is this: you'll pay "more" money for a vehicle which is costs more than a Z06 for the extra reliability. What vehicle would that be? Every car in remotely that price range gets owned...

[Rakshas]

Originally Posted by 3000ways

Even the few V8's that the Japanese do make and sell in the United States are class leaders compared to their class competetion.

Lets compare shall we.
Toyota
4.7-liter DOHC 32-valve EFI
i-FORCE V8
240 hp @ 4,800 rpm;
315 lb.-ft. @ 3,400 rpm

Nissan
Endurance 5.6-liter DOHC 32-valve V8 engine
305 hp @ 4,900 rpm
379 lb-ft.@ 3,600 rpm

Lexus
4.7-liter, four-cam, 32-valve 90º V8 engine.
235 hp @ 4,800 rpm,
320 lb-ft.@ 3,400 rpm

Decent enginesso far

Cadillac
6.0-liter H.O. Vortec 6000 V8 :
345 horsepower and
380 lb-ft torque

Chevrolet
E85 Vortec 5300 V8
295 hp at 5200 rpm.
330 lb.-ft. of torque at 4000 rpm

Vortec 6000 V8 Engine
325 hp at 5200 rpm
365 lb.-ft. of torque at 4000 rpm

Big Block Vortec 8100 V8 Engine
320 hp at 5000 rpm.
440 lb.-ft. of torque at 3200 rpm.

LS1
Horsepower 350 @ 5200
Torque 375 @ 4400

LS6
Horsepower 405 @ 6000
Torque 400 lb.-ft. @ 4800

LS2
400 horsepower at 6000 rpm
400 lb.-ft. of torque at 4400 rpm

Hmmm, seems the american v8s are better despite geing "pushrod relics"(nissanus.com)

[EmeraldPrelude]

I see all the sides to the argument if you ask me. The Japanese vehicles are definately high quality.. You can't complain after getting as much power as you do from a smaller engine. The only American engine that is starting to come anywhere near Japanese 4 cylinders is the Ecotec.. Thats still a bit away if you ask me. As far as supercars, yes Europe definately has the crown in that category. I have yet to see any Japanese car truly worthy of the name "Supercar" except maybe the Skyline GTR V Spec. I would say American car makers are starting to catch up a bit with the Ford Gt..which puts up amazing numbers on the track. With the Saleen S7, and the Mosler Photon. I think still the bang for the buck does go to American vehicles. What in the 50k or below range will really hang with the Z06 stock? Im sure there are quite a few that will give it a run.. But regardless they will still see taillights. (On a road course or a drag strip.) What about in the 100k range? What puts up better numbers than the Dodge Viper? 150k? Ford GT? I dont think cars hitting 200+ will out perform the Ford GT if you ask me. So it all comes down to what you prefer. Where the biases are... Or what you are looking for out of a car... 35k and below is where you hit Japanese, Evo territory for instance. Just my two cents I guess. I think there is something wonderful in cars.. no matter where they are from. (This coming from someone who has owns an Infiniti.. has plans to buy a new Corvette, and has owned a Lotus, and a BMW.) As long as the competition keeps up.. theres nothing but great things coming for all of us from all continents.