IF u had 20,000 to spend on a car

[GDK]

1st gen Eagle talon TSI (turboAWD) forged, larger injectrs, Turbos,cams, exhaust,ecu, nitrous, FMIC, drag suspension, clutch, blah blah blah. This could go on forever, but basically a 10-11 second DSM. A CRX would be a lot of fun though....

[justacruiser]

Originally Posted by Jimster

So do Civics.............They ultimately outdo Escorts (or as we called them, Lasers)



Technology??? Ever get 240 bhp out of a N/A 2.0 16 valve I4??? Honda did, admittedly that was the S2000, but 180 out of a 1.6 of similar specs.... all through Variable Valve Timing.........Who'da thunk it? Though the concept is old now (First integrated in Hondas road cars in 1985), VTEC has and will always a revolution. Then there is the amazing chassis engineering, allowing the Civic (Except the latest one, with the exception of the Type R) to be an entertaining drive and dynamics champion of the small-medium class, with the Alfa 147, Ford Focus and Peugeot 306

Along with BMW and Ferrari, Honda will always be the engineers choice. Until someone betters them, that they will remain

Civics are not performance cars. They aren't road handling machines, they were never built to be. They're ok for their price, but they aren't speed machines and they certainly aren't track demons, no matter what engine you get from the factory, they'd have to be heavily modified to be called 'performance' cars.

VVT is a cool technology, but:

http://www.dukeofgloucester.co.uk/caprotti.htm

Not EVEN close to a new idea. The aftermarket has been toying with ways to dynamically change the cam profile for decades. Honda was just the first (that I know of) to use a mass produced electronic method. Ever hear of Rhoads lifters? Check them out, they changed the way performance lifters were made back in the sixties and actually utilized a hydraulic method of changing the cam profile on a PUSHROD engine, though it wasn't with the same mechanical method that Honda uses. That was over 30 years ago.

Honda is definitely a good company, certainly the best the Japanese have, but they aren't the end-all car company.

http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m.../article.jhtml


Just check that out. GM and Honda are going to be crashing heads together within the next 10 years or so, just you watch. GM is no slouch with technology either, especially with the pool of worldwide engineers they have at their beck and call.

[MR2Driver]

Originally Posted by justacruiser

certainly the best the Japanese have

HA! HARDLY.

Post immaturity explanation: The best at what actually?

Sales: Nope, Toyota beat GM at that one.

Performance: Nope, the top 3 performing 4 CYL's are the 3S-GTE(Toyota), the SR20DET(Nissan) and the 4G (Mitsu). Guess what they all have in common? A TURBO, the only real way to make great power on a 2 liter or less.

Gas Economy: Well its already proof that Toyota can meet the 100HP per liter with equal torque while still having the power potential for huge #'s on an unopened motor (3S-GTE or the 2JZ) But what about gas economy. Nope, I forgot, Toyota is #1 there too, being the lead and pioneers of hybrid technology, and with the Volta underway my god...

So yet again how are they the best? I mean they have 2 sports cars under their name. 1. The S2000, overrated at best, no power potential whatsoever as an NA, i dont care how many RPM it goes to. And the NSX.

The NSX, while I love it to death, also doesnt have great power potential with that engine. Its a beast on the track but thats only where it can use the MR layout to its advantage (cornering.) But its not exactly a great all around sports car when it comes to power potential.

The only things that Honda is the best at are:
1. Making cheap, affordable, economical grocery getters.
2. Making the best FF chassis (which is a great trait, but isnt the best racing layout in the world)
3. At giving posers a car to destroy, and humiliate themselves with as they try to pretend that their cars are faster than they are. (Ricers)

Im no Honda hater, I just know what their strengths are, they are good at what they do. They make great bikes, and very economical cheap cars to serve their purpose. But performance? I dont think so... not the best at in any way.

They dont have a rotary to compete with Mazda.
They dont have an AWD/FR beast like the Skyline.
They dont compare to Toyota.
They dont have any AWD's or Turbos.
Their sales are declining....

When it comes down to automotive performance, they fall short, and isnt this what the thread is all about, I mean unless best import is a question without performance as a category then... Honda?

Bring on the flames....

[Jimster]

Originally Posted by justacruiser

Civics are not performance cars. They aren't road handling machines, they were never built to be. They're ok for their price, but they aren't speed machines and they certainly aren't track demons, no matter what engine you get from the factory, they'd have to be heavily modified to be called 'performance' cars.

VVT is a cool technology, but:

http://www.dukeofgloucester.co.uk/caprotti.htm

Not EVEN close to a new idea. The aftermarket has been toying with ways to dynamically change the cam profile for decades. Honda was just the first (that I know of) to use a mass produced electronic method. Ever hear of Rhoads lifters? Check them out, they changed the way performance lifters were made back in the sixties and actually utilized a hydraulic method of changing the cam profile on a PUSHROD engine, though it wasn't with the same mechanical method that Honda uses. That was over 30 years ago.

Honda is definitely a good company, certainly the best the Japanese have, but they aren't the end-all car company.

http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m.../article.jhtml


Just check that out. GM and Honda are going to be crashing heads together within the next 10 years or so, just you watch. GM is no slouch with technology either, especially with the pool of worldwide engineers they have at their beck and call.

Any Civic that reads Type R or SiR, most certainly is quite a track weapon.


The lesser models are not, but they are still fun to punt around, better than most front drivers, especially the sappy competitors from Japan.......

Laclean: Excatly, they all use a Turbo, the SR20DE, 3SGE get whipped stupid by the B16a and B18c, if you're going to compare N/A to N/A.

Speaking of fuel economy, as much as I don't give a shit- the Civic IMA and Insight, get better milage than a Prius- which gets out-sipped by a few diesels.

I also would deem the Integra and Civic Type R's sports cars as well, and the Prelude VTiR with ATTS......

Also, the Rotary is a silly thing to say, no-one really does a rotary except Mazda.......These days they don't anyway...........

The rumorr mill also suggests an Accord (aka TSX) 2.2 Turbo with AWD in the pipeline, so that'll be interesting.....They do compare to Toyota, they in fact compare to them in every way- the two companies are dead-set rivals, when you think about it, the only Jap companies that have been financially stable for the past 10 years, or if not owned partly by someone else.

[MR2Driver]

Are you kidding, the BEAMS 3SGE outclasses the B16A completely. But im sure you dont even know about that one...

The Civic Type-R and Integra are NOT sports cars. Dont know who lead you to believe that. They are "sport compact cars" or "hot hatches." Ur lucky if people dont call them econobox's...

In what ways does Honda compare in any way? And how are they rivals? Does Honda's dwinling sales have Toyota shaking in their boots? Because last time I checked, the only close competitors for Toyota were the GM companies.

[justacruiser]

Originally Posted by Lachean

HA! HARDLY.

Post immaturity explanation: The best at what actually?

Sales: Nope, Toyota beat GM at that one.

Performance: Nope, the top 3 performing 4 CYL's are the 3S-GTE(Toyota), the SR20DET(Nissan) and the 4G (Mitsu). Guess what they all have in common? A TURBO, the only real way to make great power on a 2 liter or less.

Gas Economy: Well its already proof that Toyota can meet the 100HP per liter with equal torque while still having the power potential for huge #'s on an unopened motor (3S-GTE or the 2JZ) But what about gas economy. Nope, I forgot, Toyota is #1 there too, being the lead and pioneers of hybrid technology, and with the Volta underway my god...

So yet again how are they the best? I mean they have 2 sports cars under their name. 1. The S2000, overrated at best, no power potential whatsoever as an NA, i dont care how many RPM it goes to. And the NSX.

The NSX, while I love it to death, also doesnt have great power potential with that engine. Its a beast on the track but thats only where it can use the MR layout to its advantage (cornering.) But its not exactly a great all around sports car when it comes to power potential.

The only things that Honda is the best at are:
1. Making cheap, affordable, economical grocery getters.
2. Making the best FF chassis (which is a great trait, but isnt the best racing layout in the world)
3. At giving posers a car to destroy, and humiliate themselves with as they try to pretend that their cars are faster than they are. (Ricers)

Im no Honda hater, I just know what their strengths are, they are good at what they do. They make great bikes, and very economical cheap cars to serve their purpose. But performance? I dont think so... not the best at in any way.

They dont have a rotary to compete with Mazda.
They dont have an AWD/FR beast like the Skyline.
They dont compare to Toyota.
They dont have any AWD's or Turbos.
Their sales are declining....

When it comes down to automotive performance, they fall short, and isnt this what the thread is all about, I mean unless best import is a question without performance as a category then... Honda?

Bring on the flames....

You know, now that I think about it, you're right about something in this, Toyota is better. I'll leave my post un edited just to show my mistake, but Toyota is more reliable in the long run, from myself and other peoples experiences. Nissan isn't bad either, I have had extremely good luck with my little truck, despite bashing the shit out of it. But I'll still say, Honda isn't the end all company. Not even close.

[MR2Driver]

Originally Posted by justacruiser

You know, now that I think about it, you're right about something in this, Toyota is better. I'll leave my post un edited just to show my mistake, but Toyota is more reliable in the long run, from myself and other peoples experiences. Nissan isn't bad either, I have had extremely good luck with my little truck, despite bashing the shit out of it. But I'll still say, Honda isn't the end all company. Not even close.

Good, good..... all will fall like dominos....

[RB26 Wanna Be]

with $20K I would start to build my ultimate wet dream. Unfortunately I don't beleive that 20K would be enough.

[911S_TARGA_RSR]

One Word: SRT-4.

[Jimster]

Dwindling sales??? Must be lean times in the US market for Honda then??? Because the European Accord (TSX), Jazz/Fit and CRV have been pushing up Hondas sales in Japan and Europe- While Civic sales are stable..........The Civic outsells the Corolla here in Europe, the Camry is lucky to muster up 500 a year in the UK, even less in the rest of Europe. The Yaris, RAV4 and Avensis are the only Toyotas with sales that look half-credible over here and the Avensis banks solely on it's NCAP crash-test rating. Toyota don't even have a credible diesel in thier passenger car range- the D4D engines are piss-weak in comparision to the new 2.2 diesel by Honda.

How about the Corolla 5 door?? If that wasn't a blatant Civic clone then I don't know what is and they still can't get anywhere near the space that the Civic 5 door offers.

Ever driven a Civic Type R, or Japanese-market Integra Type R for that matter???? Driving them certainly convincies event he most skeptical, just how good they are.

Honda and Toyota compare in this way- They are both Japanese, they are both financially stable, they have a rival for every car that either makes e.g.

Jazz/Fit=Yaris/Echo
Civic=Corolla
Accord (Euro)=Avensis and Altezza/IS200
Accord (US)=Camry and Avalon
NSX=Supra (though, not made any more)
RAV4=CRV
Highlander=Pilot
Legend=Windom/ES300
Integra=Celica

etc.

AT the end of the day Honda and Toyota have a car to match the other.

The difference is Honda's admittedly have a use-by date of 150,000 km's- after which they need attention- while Toyotas go on forever.

Whatever way you look at it, Hondas recent cars have begun to show imagination, namely the Jazz and Accord/TSX, while Toyotas remain automotive dishwashers- with the only real stars being the sports cars that Toyota offers.

Just another observation- If you took away Toyotas truck sales, to the US, would they still outsell Honda? The mind boggles.

[IKILLRICERS]

Yah i guess i kinda hated civics after all these ricers came out because of the fast and the furious. But u gotta love a mustang killing civic

[r1000000000]

give a crx 500 horsepower and watches those V8s cry like babies.

[15poundhead]

one thing i hate more than ricers, the "good ol' boy" with the "unbeatable" mustang/camaro

[15poundhead]

and pickups dropped to the ground. Wats up with that?

[charlzneon]

get a pulsar GTiR for about 9-10k and pump it with mods.