TD04 TURBO best gear to spool ????

[Tranzlogic]

well im not running a b18 tho, im running a b16 that will be on about 12-15psi street and 20-25psi track. so as far as stock boost levels for the mated motor it wouldnt matter.

[boosted331]

Originally Posted by tran_nsx

u guys are forgeting some variables into all of this. first off in stock form, the ls is better for forced induction. i don't feeling like debating about this over and over again, yes the b18c1 has a shorter gear ratio, yes it has vtec and lets say it does boost quicker. the question is- would you rather settle for a little quicker boost maybe about 500 rpms faster, but can only safely handle 8psi with about 230whp and 170 lb/tq, or use the ls and have boost a bit slower but can handle 12 psi with about 250whp and about 240 lb/tq? i'll take the ls any day. this again i just want to make sure is the complete motor and not about first gear.

Stock GSR motors have been proven to withstand 300+ WHP with 8-10 pounds of boost, on pump gas, without any problems. If you want some added insurance, run a thicker headgasket. If you start wanting to make serious power, throw some rods, pistons, and a blockguard in your motor, and you're stout to 400-450 WHP. If you want to make that kind of power with an LS motor, you need to dive into some major headwork. The only reason you should choose and LS motor is if you are REALLY strapped for cash, in which case I can't really recommend going with a turbo kit anyways, if you arn't going to spend the dough for a proper tune.

Tranzlogic: If you're running a B16 DEFINITELY keep the stock tranny, you will kick yourself in the ass if you don't.

[tran_nsx]

if u want to change a gear in the b16 the only one u would really want to change is the 5th gear from an ls to help conserve fuel.




[quote=boosted331]Stock GSR motors have been proven to withstand 300+ WHP with 8-10 pounds of boost, on pump gas, without any problems. If you want some added insurance, run a thicker headgasket. If you start wanting to make serious power, throw some rods, pistons, and a blockguard in your motor, and you're stout to 400-450 WHP. If you want to make that kind of power with an LS motor, you need to dive into some major headwork. The only reason you should choose and LS motor is if you are REALLY strapped for cash, in which case I can't really recommend going with a turbo kit anyways, if you arn't going to spend the dough for a proper tune.
QUOTE]

+300whp @10 psi with pump gas on a stock motor and kit? please show me some proof. a friend of mine used to have a 93 gsr with a revhard stage 2 kit (t3/t4 hybrid), the most he ever went up to is 9 psi on a few occasions noticed i said safely run 8 psi, there is a difference. he never did dyno his car, but i bet it was nothing close to 300whp. running 10 psi as a daily driver i'll bet ur going to kiss your gsr motor good bye after a couple thousand miles. it might not happen to day, it might not happen tommorrow, but it will happen.

also today i was just having some small talk with another turbo gsr owner who has a 98 gsr with greddy kit (i believe it has the t25, not too sure), well he also had it at 9psi on a few occasions on a stock motor and stock turbo kit, the dyno result was 239whp with a 1/4 time of mid to high 13's on street tires. i really don't see how u get +300 whp @ 10psi at all.

and somewhere i have an small article on the replacement for a thicker headgasket, i'll try to find it and put it on here.

about the ls seeing high hp numbers is by making some serious headwork, ever heard of the vtec head? a proper ls/vtec conversion in a light civic alone and u can see 13's or even lower.


i went to the turbonetics website where they have a chart of how much hp u will get after 8 psi on their kit. for the b18c1 in 94-01, it went from 170 stock to 260. at 10 psi which is asking for trouble, thats about what 280-290 at the crank, if u use the theory of about 10 hp per pound of boost. at the wheels, and u subtract 15% that would be about 240-250 whp.

[Tranzlogic]

to stray away from this argument for a moment...why would you say I would kick myself int he ass If i didnt go with a B16 hydro ?? i dont have a tranny all so why wouldnt i just wanna go gsr ? I just wanna know what you know to say that i would kick myself in the ass if i didnt go with a b16 hydro

[Neutrino]

Originally Posted by boosted331

Stock GSR motors have been proven to withstand 300+ WHP with 8-10 pounds of boost, on pump gas, without any problems. If you want some added insurance, run a thicker headgasket. If you start wanting to make serious power, throw some rods, pistons, and a blockguard in your motor, and you're stout to 400-450 WHP. If you want to make that kind of power with an LS motor, you need to dive into some major headwork. The only reason you should choose and LS motor is if you are REALLY strapped for cash, in which case I can't really recommend going with a turbo kit anyways, if you arn't going to spend the dough for a proper tune.

I'm with tran_nsx on this one.....going from ~160 whp to 300 whp requires lot more than 8-10psi.

[tran_nsx]

just want to make a correction, the greddy kit for the gsr comes with the 18g and not the t25, but like i said earlier, i wasn't too sure.

heres also an interesting info coming from an ex 93 gsr turbo owner. my friend said if he had the choice he would turbo an ls instead because of the better tq power band.

[Tranzlogic]

???

[boosted331]

www.honda-tech.com

Search on there, you'll find over a dozen cars making 300+ WHP on stock GSR internals with low boost. What you're failing to realize is a bigger turbo such as an SC61, a T3/T67, or a 60-1 is moving a lot more air at lower boost pressures than your typical T3/TO4E 40 or 46 trim turbo. You move more air, you can make more power, and since you're doing it at lower boost pressures the air will be much cooler, allowing you to run on pump gas provided you pull some timing. I don't feel like getting into a pissing match or an arguement, I know what i've seen done, I know what you can do with GSR's and if you disagree that's fine with me.

Tranzlogic: I said you would be kicking yourself in the ass if you got a GSR trans because I assumed that you already had a B16 tranny. I would still recommend a B16 or ITR tranny for your B16 motor, it will help your car accelerate harder due to the lower torque of B16's.

[tran_nsx]

i had a hard time finding anything, it was like searching for a needle in hay stack. the only i notice was a gsr with 11psi at 328 hp but it doesn't anything about his internals but i know it can't be the usual turbo most likely made for a street car.

anyways, all the turbos u mention are way too huge and not made for the street at all. u seem to be confuse with street and strip vehicles, with a sc61 u'll be lucky if u even see full boost at 5000-5500 rpm's, that is way too much lag for a street or even a street/strip car. the most ideal turbo for the b18's is the t3/t4, u can ask any one who knows about turbos. this is the reason why these turbines are "typical", hell even for a street car the t3/t4 might even be to laggy for some since full boost can't be reach till around 4000-4500 rpms. this is why some even opt for the t3 turbo so boost can't be seen almost immediately.

i already understand the bigger the turbo the more the power gain at the same amount of boost, but if your trying to make to make a turbo street vehicle, 9 out of 10, no one is going to prefer those huge drag turbos. if u are into mostly, if not purely strip, this is not the forum for u. there should be a another forum for drag racing which we do have where the info in there can be sometimes quite contradictory towards the info in here.

[boosted331]

Originally Posted by tran_nsx

anyways, all the turbos u mention are way too huge and not made for the street at all. u seem to be confuse with street and strip vehicles, with a sc61 u'll be lucky if u even see full boost at 5000-5500 rpm's, that is way too much lag for a street or even a street/strip car. the most ideal turbo for the b18's is the t3/t4, u can ask any one who knows about turbos. this is the reason why these turbines are "typical", hell even for a street car the t3/t4 might even be to laggy for some since full boost can't be reach till around 4000-4500 rpms. this is why some even opt for the t3 turbo so boost can't be seen almost immediately.

I was running an SC61 on my car, with a stock bore GSR motor 9:1 compression I was starting to see boost at around 4300, I had 16 pounds before 5000 RPM's. The only thing a smaller turbo does is make you lose traction earlier and not have as much top end pull. Turbo lag is overemphasized, and making full boost at 5000 isn't a big deal when you're spinning the motor to 9000 or 9500 RPM's. If you think lag is a massive deal, you really need to try driving a big turbo honda. Here's a shining example.



That's a stock B16 motor with a PTE GT35E at 12 psi, tuned with hondata. 2.5" exhaust, GSR cams, no headwork, inlinepro manifold. He has a very broad, useable power curve with one of those turbos that "isn't meant for the street at all"

Here's another one.



81.5MM LS/Vtec, stock sleeves, GSR head, 9:1 compression, a T3/T67 turbo (another one of those unstreetable lagmasters), 3" downpipe leading to an ecutout. 420 WHP on 91 octane with 14 pounds of boost. Still has a very broad powercurve.

[tran_nsx]

now im confuse. what is your point with these dynos'? but whatever.
with your sc61 reaching full boost b4 5000 rpms,i would like to see your dyno please. i know measuring boost with a dyno chart isn't the best way to look at it, but u can definately see where full boost is reach by the jump in whp especially for a sc61. with both these motors u can see full boost isn't reach till after 5000rpms, so im skeptical urs can spool faster unless u have ball bearing or a hybrid of some sort.

for a street car, who the hell wants turbo lag till 5000 rpms? well actually no one wants lag in the first place, but to see huge whp numbers u have get lag to gain big numbers. and don't tell me u drive around shifting gears at 9000-9500 to go to the grocery store now, do u?

[boosted331]

Originally Posted by tran_nsx

now im confuse. what is your point with these dynos'? but whatever.
with your sc61 reaching full boost b4 5000 rpms,i would like to see your dyno please. i know measuring boost with a dyno chart isn't the best way to look at it, but u can definately see where full boost is reach by the jump in whp especially for a sc61. with both these motors u can see full boost isn't reach till after 5000rpms, so im skeptical urs can spool faster unless u have ball bearing or a hybrid of some sort.

The first motor is a B16 with a GT35, less displacement means you can't accuretley compare spool, and the second car is running a T3/T67, which is a TON bigger than an SC61. My point of the dynos was to show you that with big turbos on street cars you can make a lot of power and still have a broad powerband.

Originally Posted by tran_nsx

for a street car, who the hell wants turbo lag till 5000 rpms? well actually no one wants lag in the first place, but to see huge whp numbers u have get lag to gain big numbers.

Who doesn't want lag on a street car? Do you go blasting around town, WOT everywhere, needing boost at 3000 RPM's in every gear to make your way to the grocery store? The fact is, having lag helps you with traction out of the hole if you're driving aggressively on the street, and then once you're out of first gear your revs never drop low enough so that the turbo has to spool again.

Originally Posted by tran_nsx

and don't tell me u drive around shifting gears at 9000-9500 to go to the grocery store now, do u?

Pretty contradictory statement here. You were arguing how you need to run a smaller turbo, so you can have boost sooner and make more low end power, but what the hell do you need that low end power for. Like you just said, you're not racing stoplight-to-stoplight, full-throttle banging off the rev limiter shifts to go get a gallon of milk, so why do you need full boost at 3500 rpm's?

The only time when turbo lag really comes into play is taking off from a stop. If you're running on street tires you arn't going to get traction in any turbo b-series honda with moderate boost, so boost while you're going slower (going slower means easier for motor to overpower traction and brake tires loose) is only going to hinder your acceleration. Boost coming in later on and making more peak horsepower means that you are going to be moving faster when boost hits, so its harder to break the tires loose, and you have a much harder top end pull for quicker acceleration.

Let me also put it into laymans terms. I'm running a GT35R (basically a ball-bearing SC61) on my car right now because I got it at a great price as an upgrade over my SC61. I have a lot of timing pulled out and its' tuned very rich, which results in cool EGT's and comparably slow turbo spool, I'm making 1 bar of boost by around 5500. That means that by the time my car hits 20 MPH I am making nearly full boost in first gear. With a turbo that made full boost at 3500 RPM's, that would be around 15 MPH. That's about half a second in the real world. If I'm racing and I shift out of second gear my revs NEVER drop below 6000. I never fall out of boost after shifting into second, so my car would have a huge advantage over a car with say a T3, even though he might get a MINISCULE jump on me at the beginning with his half a second boost to start off with. As with before, I don't want to turn this into a pissing match. I know what works in the real world, but you can belive what you want.

[tran_nsx]

oh man, im getting tired of going back and fourth man, im not even going to qoute u since i'll be here forever.

first off please don't tell me having a huge sc61 turbo in a small 1.8 or 1.6 is realistic in the every day world. the only time these will mostly likely be use is in the strip, in the everyday world, never. again, in the every day world we don't shift at 9000-9500 rpms just to go around, are u crazy? u drive around like that i bet u have about 10,000 miles or less on that motor. bigger turbos are used in strips for making horrific power to see the low time slips, simple as that.

im also not contradicting myself, on the street we want smaller turbos to see boost quicker since we don't shift at the 9000-9500 rpms modfied race motors are use to, and in those cases, all ur only doing deteriotating the longevity of the engine. its a pretty known fact u want to generally shift between 3000-4000 rpms are street car normally. so the quicker the boost the better especially on out torqeless hondas to give us a better power band throughout, instead of waiting for boost to arrive finally at say 5000 rpms, that is not realistic is a street period.

just because the turbo is bigger doesn't mean its better, just fyi. each car is different so they each have to be look at differently to help the individual cars perform optimally. if we go by your rules, i guess we should say screw the little t3 or 18g in the hondas and try to put turbos such as greddy td07-18a made for supras and skylines, or the turbonetics thumper t-100 turbo that makes 1800 hp right? wrong. .

u want to know whats a contradiction? ur now saying the opposite of what u pointing out on your first boost chart a while back until i corrected u, u remember? i didn't want to bring that up again but i guess i have no choice. in that chart u had a turbo in general seeing full boost at around 1500-2000 rpms then having it stay at that specific boost level if im not mistaken (hmm what kind of turbo would that be?). u claim this is why it's better than the other blowers (roots and supercharger) , now ur saying its better to have boost at the higher rpms due to it getting better traction and that we don't nessecarily need boost at the lower end at all. now what wrong with that picture? well anyways im done with this debate and its pretty far off the topic by now, but like i said earlier, u just don't seem to get my point across, a street car should never be compared with strip car at all, they are just to different classes, but u tend to always combine them together.

[boosted331]

Originally Posted by tran_nsx

first off please don't tell me having a huge sc61 turbo in a small 1.8 or 1.6 is realistic in the every day world. the only time these will mostly likely be use is in the strip, in the everyday world, never. again, in the every day world we don't shift at 9000-9500 rpms just to go around, are u crazy? u drive around like that i bet u have about 10,000 miles or less on that motor. bigger turbos are used in strips for making horrific power to see the low time slips, simple as that.

Christ, are you retarded? The whole point of my post was that NO, I don't drive around like a stunna every day, I don't shift @ WOT everywhere, every day, so you don't need full boost at 3500 rpm's for a street car! I drive my car normally like I would if it wern't turboed.

Originally Posted by tran_nsx

im also not contradicting myself, on the street we want smaller turbos to see boost quicker since we don't shift at the 9000-9500 rpms modfied race motors are use to, and in those cases, all ur only doing deteriotating the longevity of the engine. its a pretty known fact u want to generally shift between 3000-4000 rpms are street car normally. so the quicker the boost the better especially on out torqeless hondas to give us a better power band throughout, instead of waiting for boost to arrive finally at say 5000 rpms, that is not realistic is a street period.

Go drive any kind of a turbo car, then go look at this statement again. If you're shifting at 3000-4000 RPM's driving slowly YOU DO NOT MAKE BOOST, AT ALL. Part throttle means no boost, which means who gives a shit how soon your turbo spools, because you want to drive easy for gas mileage. Once again, go drive a real turbo car, get some real experience, and come back here.

Originally Posted by tran_nsx

just because the turbo is bigger doesn't mean its better, just fyi. each car is different so they each have to be look at differently to help the individual cars perform optimally. if we go by your rules, i guess we should say screw the little t3 or 18g in the hondas and try to put turbos such as greddy td07-18a made for supras and skylines, or the turbonetics thumper t-100 turbo that makes 1800 hp right? wrong.

Did I ever tell people to go put a massive turbo on there car? Am I telling you to go put a TV-frame turbo on your honda? No, so stop trying to be a smartass dipshit. You said turbos like SC61's, T3/T67's, etc are unstreetable, and I showed you that is completely untrue. Show me where I told you to go run an SC61 if you have a stock D16 and want 200 WHP.

Originally Posted by tran_nsx

u want to know whats a contradiction? ur now saying the opposite of what u pointing out on your first boost chart a while back until i corrected u, u remember? i didn't want to bring that up again but i guess i have no choice. in that chart u had a turbo in general seeing full boost at around 1500-2000 rpms then having it stay at that specific boost level if im not mistaken (hmm what kind of turbo would that be?). u claim this is why it's better than the other blowers (roots and supercharger) , now ur saying its better to have boost at the higher rpms due to it getting better traction and that we don't nessecarily need boost at the lower end at all. now what wrong with that picture?

If you wern't an idiot and went and looked at the chart again, you would see that I didn't describe a turbo as spooling at 1500-2000 and being superior because of that. I showed a roots blower which makes full boost instantly and drops off, a centrifugal blower which makes full boost at redline, and a turbo which makes full boost somewhere in the mid of the RPM range. I said the turbo is superior to the roots blower because it makes more power per pound of boost and pulls harder on the top end, and that the turbo is superior to the centrifugal blower because it makes a ton more mid range power. Once again, you did a nice job of trying to be a smartass but end up looking like the unexperienced dumbass.

Originally Posted by tran_nsx

well anyways im done with this debate and its pretty far off the topic by now, but like i said earlier, u just don't seem to get my point across, a street car should never be compared with strip car at all, they are just to different classes, but u tend to always combine them together.

Sure, I'm not seeing your "point", but you arn't seeing mine either. A car with an SC61 is not a race car. Go back to honda-tech, search on there. LOTS of people running SC61's, T3/60-1's, T4/60-1's, T3/T67's, and even some straight T67's with a TO4 exhaust housing on bonafide street cars. The only reason you are trying to say these cars arn't street cars is because you have never drove in a fast turbo car before.

At this point, I really am done. You are going to be totally hopeless on your views about turbo hondas untill you actually get to drive one. My advice? Go drive one. I'm sick of arguing over the internet with people who have zero real world experience or knowledge with anything. It's just like the people saying "VTEC IS BAD FOR TURBOS" and "LS/VTEC IS BAD BECAUSE IT HAS A BAD ROD/STROKE RATIO. EVEN THOUGH I DONT KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS, I KNOW ITS BAD!@!@#!@#!@#"

[tran_nsx]

i just glance at your whole thread and thought to myself, forget that. oh and yes i've driven several turbo cars fyi but again u probably want proof like maybe a picture of me in an eclipse or a turbo integ, right? whatever this is pointless, im done.