Who's seen The Last Samurai?

[2strokebloke]

Originally Posted by tenguzero

By "a few years" do you mean you are interested in the incredible Tokugawa era (my favorite, along with the highly interesting Sengoku Jidai- hell, I'm fascinated by everything feudal Japan) and the unfortunate, but inevitable rape of the country by us capitalist pigs?

The crumbling of the Tokugawa shogunate in the 1850s and 60's I find really interesting, along with the Meiji Restoration that follows. Unfortunately, I don't agree that there was a "rape" of that country. In fact Japan got off pretty easily, when Fillmore sent Perry in 1853, we didn't want anything, but for the Japanese to stop imprisoning shipwrecked Americans and a refueling station - hardly what I consider "raping" a country. Maybe the treaty that Townsend Harris made them sign eight years later was worse (Americans exempt from Japanese laws) but even though at the time it was bad, it did cause the people of Japan to see how inept the Shogunate was at handling pressure from foreign countries (as well as ignoring the advice of the emperor) and led to the revolutions that ultimately led Japan to become a modern country, instead of being turned into a third world destination.

[tenguzero]

I'll toast to that Perhaps "rape" was a bit of a strong word, after all, it's not like foreign policies, government, and military capabilities were entirely pushed on them, there were plenty in power who accepted with open arms (as illustrated in the movie,) having glimpsed these ways of the outside world through Jesuit priests and traders (Dutch in particular, if I'm not mistaken.) Perry's tactics weren't exactly diplomatic though- parking a fleet of gunships off the coast of a country, doing everything possible to overtly display items of power and technological advancement, then "requesting" refueling rights -and soon after- trade agreements, strikes me as rather forceful. I've come across the part about shipwrecked sailors before, but am currently lacking in the facts of the matter, though I can see that as being a concern. I'm sure most (potentially) hostile countries made/still make a practice of that though, so I can't see why they would've singled out Japan, without having ulterior motives.

[2strokebloke]

Originally Posted by tenguzero

Perry's tactics weren't exactly diplomatic though- parking a fleet of gunships off the coast of a country, doing everything possible to overtly display items of power and technological advancement, then "requesting" refueling rights -and soon after- trade agreements, strikes me as rather forceful. I've come across the part about shipwrecked sailors before, but am currently lacking in the facts of the matter, though I can see that as being a concern. I'm sure most (potentially) hostile countries made/still make a practice of that though, so I can't see why they would've singled out Japan, without having ulterior motives.

The whaling industry was expanding in the Pacific at the time, and when a whaling ship went down, the Japanese would either offer no aid, or imprison the survivors, and it was becoming an annoyance (though not really a major problem) to the U.S.
Perry sailed his ships there, he was proud of the steamers in his fleet because he helped pioneer there use in the Navy - so I guess he was showing off in that respect. But the intent was not really to intimidate them, he was just very proud of his fleet. It may have been forceful, but he just wanted to get the job done, he never threatened to war with them if they didn't agree - but he did make it clear that it was important that they did.

And the Dutch were allowed to trade with the Japanese, but I believe they were confined to one port.

[tenguzero]

Oh yeah, good point. I remembered they talked about this on a recent special being run on the Discovery Channel, simply titled "The Samurai." I recorded it, but have only watched it once- apparently I need to watch it again It's two hours long! I'm glad that "The Last Samurai" has brought some of this history to the forefront, if only for a little while. I for one, am glad to finally be seeing something involving the Japanese on the History and Discovery channels that isn't exclusively WWII related. It is rare to catch specials on the pre-war times.