what I believe...

[Dinohunter]

Chaos thoery was popularized by the book and movie Jurassic Park. So I am going to use one of their examples as common ground so-to-speak. Start off with a pool ball. Any color (but black). Put it in the middle. Now line it up exactly with white ball so that you can creat a line splitting the table in half long-wise. Hit the ball. Mark where it went, and where the balls were initially. Now hit the same ball, in the same position, and I guarantee it won't go to the same place. Thats Chaos theory. Its where the imperfections are amplified. In this case the surface of the ball may have dings or cracks, the table may be uneven, the felt fibers might be denser in one area than another. See how a tiny imperfection can turn everything askew?

Now to a real time example. I believe I used this already, but its a very good one. Look back on the mass extinction of the dinosaurs. If they did not die like they did, its a very good chance we would not be here. They still would be. But nature selected them to die, thus creating us in the long run. See how that imperfection (the extinction) amplifies into a larger substance (us)?

The Bible is indeed a book of philosophies, but I take it from the point of view where a lot of the people take it from. I have seen a lot of people said everything in the Bible happened, I can even point you to threads on the net that say it did. That disturbs me. Its not the faith. Its the gullibility of the subject. I mean you guys take the good book as a philosophical book, correct? They take it as a history book. So I like to take that vatange point.

Another good example of Chaos theory is a car in high winds (turbulence). Anything in turbulence shifts randomly. Just take a look at a water spout. Speed it up and you can see the water shifting in total randomness. But with a car, you can feel it work, see the Antenna shift in all certain ways, parts rattle. Turbulence is another key part in chaos theory. A way turbulence can also be used is in a political sense. Nobody expected Newt Gingrich to step down. But under the turbulent forces he did. See where I am getting to? A lot of the unexplained can be explained in atleast parts by chaos theory. And once you get by the basic terms your fine with it. Oh yeah, the biggest example is weather and the Butterfly effect. Weather in Philadelphia is always different than weather in Moscow at any given time. Both on other sides of the world, or on different "wings".

I hope that helps!

[Dinohunter]

Originally posted by texan
I've come to that and many other conclusions through philosophy, I created my own belief structure awhile back when I was a Philosophy major. Of course it's still constantly changing and I think I've generated more new questions than I have answered, but this is a journey, not a destination.

As a side note, I also think philosophy is horribly overlooked in the school systems. By my way of thinking, it's the single most important and noble field of study one can pursue.

The most powerful force man has wielded is thought. People can be hurt, people can be saved, people can be killed, people can be created (naturally..). Once we began to think there was no turning back. Thought is a way to discover but also to grow, and can change something so easily its often considered part of Chaos Theory.

[texan]

Originally posted by Dinohunter


The most powerful force man has wielded is thought. People can be hurt, people can be saved, people can be killed, people can be created (naturally..). Once we began to think there was no turning back. Thought is a way to discover but also to grow, and can change something so easily its often considered part of Chaos Theory.

Absolutely. I remember when I was studying it (and BTW, I didn't go that far in college, I got tired of it and just went with my career, plus I was only going for education and not a better job) people always asked what the hell good a Philo degree would bring me. Questions like that always made me laugh, people trying to figure out how your degree can help you earn more money in a new career. All I told them was that I would use it every moment of every day, since I was studying how to think and how some of the world's greatest minds thought. That always shut them up too, they realized in a sudden flash there's more to education than jobs if that's what you are looking for. And personalyl I think higher learning for the sake of a better career is often stupid, the whole point of learning is to be better and smarter in all things. Which is why philosophy is the #1 subject in my book, I had to pay my own way during school and damned if I wasn't going to really learn somthing important when I was there.

Also, here's my explanation of Chaos Theory...

Wherever there is motion or activity, there are seemingly chaotic events occuring at unpredictable rates and in unpredictable ways. Science has long ignored the cause of these systems and just chalked them up to chaotic and random motion, such as turbulence in water and it's seemingly random nature. However, back in the 80's a new mathematical theory was posed claiming that all seemingly random and chaotic events were simply events of extremely complex organization, hence they took out the chaos and randomness of everything. If one can understand the higher complexity of organization present, one can understand chaotic activities as a predictable and possibly managable way. Now chaos theory remains the domain of scientists and mathematacians for the most part, but it also spawned complexity theory and that leads to all sorts of things...

Complexity theory
There is no simple definition to complexity theory, other than the idea that most things in our universe do not act on the principles by which we would like them to. People want to see interaction in all things on a simple, linear and cause-effect type scale, but most often this is not the case (which is part ofthe reason I think we are so bad at predicting the future). According to complexity theory, things occur due to complex, non-linear reactions, a holistic approach to understanding if you will. And most of the field of study which is really interesting involves organic model study, where it's interaction between living things in a system which define the actions of that system. A good example of this is how a person interacts with their world vs. how a group of people interacting with their world. Now we've all been in a large crowd before, and interestingly event though it's made up of individuals, it doesn't even closely resemble how a person thinks or acts. The so-called mob mentality, where decisions are made by sweeping order of the crowd and often the actions taken as a result are in no way similar to how a single person would have reacted. Why is this? Because the rules have changed, the complex interactions present in the crowd follow a basic rule book that isn't the same as a single person's rules in interacting with the same world. And interestingly, a group's different set of rules can also lead to achievment above and beyond what any of it's constiuent parts are capable of, so to put it simply... change the rules of a system and you change it's limitations.

And that's just one small example of complexity theory. This field of study reaches into computer development, sociology, economics, probably every field of study in existence. And truly, both theories deal more with philosophy than anything else, the idea that all things are examples of some level of order is the same as that of all philosophers... logic dictates all things, so in any logical system everything can potentially be understood. It's all in finding the correct viewpoint, where the unexplainable becomes easily understandable.


I know this is getting long too, but I wanted to pose one more theory here. I think a good part of the reason ideas like this have taken so long to gain foothold and acceptance is actually due to the rise of Bible based schools of worship (I'll include any basic sampling of the Old Testament here too, so Judaism and Muslim worhsip also fall into this category). As a system of belief should, the Bible actually molds the way in which we view reality, especially since there is a single Creator who makes all the rules. In the Bible's system, time is perfectly linear, all rules are made by an individual, and all interactions are simple in nature as they are largely the result of interaction with that Creator or His rules. Infinity is similarly ignored in Bible based systems, since there is a clear beginning and end to all things besides the Creator. I was wondering awhile back why our concept of infinity was still in it's infancy, and why complex levels of interaction in systems are just now being explored. Also I wondered why viewpoints in the semi-modern world that challenged those of Catholicism and Christianty were so long in being adopted, such as the non helio-centric universe to give an example. If you have a hard time believing that a belief structure gives rise to you entire world viewpoint (even on a scientific scale), just look to the past to see ideas which make perfect sense being rejected by nearly everyone because they don't fall nicely inline with the established religous belief. In contrast, societies like the Mayan and Egyptian show a much greater understanding of mathematics, engineering, astrological movement and time measurement. Why? Because they were not bound by the same belief rules most of our ancestors were, so they were free to acheive such scientific advancement at a greater rate. Hell, their knowledge was even lost (or mostly lost) regarding these principles due to Bible worship.

[Dinohunter]

Exactly correct Texan. Chaos theory is almost like a rogue in the world of physics and math, and IMO, still not accepted by leading scholars. I myself see it as one of the best theory's to come out of the 20th century. It enables us to think with more accuracy, like in distinct measurements. Where it states that no measurement can be infinitely precise yet only finite. It shows a more realistic view to other theories and thoughts displayed in that era.

On the situation of growth inside a religion. Yes, Chrisitianity from my viewpoint limits science, thought itself, ideaology, and growth. Thats what is very very bad about it. Yes it makes up for it in faith, but is it worth it? To some people I guess it is, but to me, certainly not. I want a blend. Of faith, of science, of understanding, and of thought. In the world of the bible, they account for everything in linear thought. When it clearly shows that not only is there linear thought and happenings in the universe, there is also non-linear, or chaotic happenings as well. This theory is a major backstop in many agnostic debates, and a very credible one as well. I myself have used it here, and will continue to use it elsewhere. I think its a very solid theory, and in many many scholars minds will be proven fact or law within the next decade. I started philosophizing b/c of this theory, and I have gained an icredible amount of knowledge b/c of it. I think that in the upcoming years this could spell the end for many religious beliefs, simply b/c of how powerful thought is.

[igor@af]

I just couldn't hold my self back.... wanted to stick this in here:

"Ignorance is a blessing"

I very much agree with this.

[MBTN]

Ignorance is bliss.

PS
I am the most powerful force.

[piscorpio]

Wow, this is a pretty deep topic. I can relate to alot of what has been said, and the general theme is a feeling of being lost or searching for something. Ive been through Catholic schooling myself, and Ive read a few books on Eastern thought/religion, but I am no expert in either subject. I have thought about this subject alot, its as though everyday is spent grasping for that one "truth" or the one "true meaning of life" that we have been conditioned to believe exists.

I am now married and have a baby daughter who is two months old, and the search for that meaning has faded some, Ive become occupied with other things. So here is a thought Ive had, maybe the fact that we can not find that one truth, or our North as was said earlier, is simply for the fact that we are looking for something that does not exist? How can you find something that you have no concept of, and only an assembly of assumptions or ideas of? That means you may be looking for something that resembles an apple, but the whole time it was a small pebble. Well, I dont know if that made any sense to anyone, but I wanted to wiegh in on this topic. At the very least, this thread definitely makes you think.

Oh, and to add to some of the media listed (Fight Club, Bible, etc.) check out the book Ishmael, Im not exactly sure of the author. It has some interesting ideas about culture and society, and even some bible references.

[JD@af]

I agree to an extent about what you've stated in reference to "one true North." However, I think its intangibility is what makes it so special and worth seeking (or rather finding, in a more true to Zen sense). I think the idea of enlightenment is just about having a shining moment of understanding, where things become clear and focused. I don't think that if you experience such a moment, you will live the rest of your days with everything in plain site. I think that it will be just fleeting moments of understanding, and with that understanding, inner peace. I have read about it many times. And I know I for one, even though I may sound like I have specific expectations, do not, really. I'm just anxious to be experienced (taking a cue here from Jimi Hendrix).

[Moppie]

Just remember that Jimis idea of being experianced is what ultimatly killed him.
For me ultimate experiance has to be clean, uncorupted, and as real as objective my individual perception will allow.

[IanMalcolm]

IMO I do not think it was drugs that killed Jimi, it was how he used them. If you use them in moderation they could achieve the goal of nirvana, but anymore could kill you. Its always a risk, how calculated it is.

[Moppie]

Originally posted by IanMalcolm
IMO I do not think it was drugs that killed Jimi, it was how he used them

G read Noel Reddings book (he was the bass player), Im pretty sure it was the Drugs which killed him.
Anything in moderation will kill you anyway, simply breathing is a sure way to inhance your death.

But I think if your looking for Nirvana then trying to find it with drugs, will not give you the true Nirvana, but merely a distorted view on reality. Drugs are for escaping the everyday, and mundane (untill they become the everyday, and the mundane) but I believe finding your direction in life, or Nirvana or Ture north invovles facing and dealing with your life, not tying to escape it.

[John Napkintosh]

Like many of you, I'm still searching for what I believe is the meaning of my life. I expect that it will probably be completely different from the 'findings' of others, because we're all very different. We've come from different communities, we were all raised very differently, and the people we've met and experiences we've had are all different (though many were probably shared, with or without that knowledge). We've all taken very different paths, so I wouldn't expect my 'true north' to be exactly the same as anyone else's.

Though I don't see myself as the 'ignorance is bliss' type, I try not to let it be too consuming. While I pity those who never think about this kind of thing, I think it shouldn't be too great a part of my life. I want to know, but I don't want to spend too much time searching and trying to understand that I miss out on the life I'm trying to understand. But what concerns me most isn't finding what I'm searching for. I may never find it, but as far as I'm concerned, I may be better off NOT finding it.

What bugs me most is the possibility that after all the effort I may put into discovering the meaning of my life, it may not even be what I expect, or it may dissappoint me. Many expect it to be some great revelation that is going to change their life for the better. I would certainly hope that would be the case, not that I need any justification or anything. But I would certainly feel let down if it wasn't an incredibly event. I couldn't say whether or not I would be happy having found 'the answer'.

And even more than that, what is there to look forward to when you have 'the answer'? "The thing that drives us is the question". When there are no more questions, what is left? Are we elevated in our newfound enlightenment in some way that we now achieved a higher level of being? Or will the sense of completeness be the only discernable result of the entire journey?

This is one thing that I try not to think about. It's one thing I would have to face at some point, since I'm already on that journey, but in the back of my mind I know that this occasion may come. I just don't want to hype it up to be something that it's not.

:shrug:

At least I still have questions.

[Bean Bandit]

IMO it's the search for our 'true noth' not to find it what we're spending our life for. Otherwise I don't think the human race will last very much longer if we don't start another way of thinking. Now some of you maybe say that's very pesimistic but IMO it's mmore realistic. It wont affect us maybe we even last another thousand years but when I look at the world and what's happening on it there're a lot of things I don't like and I often think how some people can stay so ignorant and blind not seeing that it can't go on like this. e.g. the Israel crisis (I'm an Israelian) there are so much losses on both sides and still there are extrems (on both sides) who go on teaching theire childs that the other are the true bad although they know that ion fact this teaching is destroing the future of theire childs and wont make it any better!
I'm a very peaceful guy but I think it's pretty shitty when people close there eyes and go on with the mistakes they made and never even try to change something.

[Lizard King]

Where ya been, Bean?