20g turbo or t3/t4 turbo for 92 eclipse GS?

[kjewer1]

See HRCs pages on turbo kits for the NTs. Even if you dont choose to buy thier kit, you can use the site to get an idea of what kind of boost and power levels they recomend before upgrading internals. There is information already out there, hundreds of poeple are turboing NT DSMs. Use it and take advantage of thier efforts, rather than try to reinvent the wheel.

It should be www.hahnracecraft.com, or www.hrchahnracecraft.com

According to them, 10 psi and 275 are the highest they suggest before doing internals. They use a 10cm 16g, which I think is too big to be using at 10psi, a 7cm 14b would be just as efficient and spool better. Why they use those turbos is crappy reason ($$), but they do work well.

[Talon007]

Yeah I never understood why they sell you on a Big 16G for the NT. I was reading a couple magazines with features on Turboo kits, and 100% of the kits sold you a bigger than necessary turbo. Its just a cash grab for those people that dont know shit about turbos

[kjewer1]

Yup. AndI believe I finally figured out why they push those shyte 10cm housings that are terrible on 2 liter motors. They can buy the turbo already assembled with that housing on it, as part of an upgrade for trucks. So its just to save them some cash. Gay... Whats even funnier is when a 14b is more than enough to run 10 psi on a 2.0, but people insist on big garret turbos or 18G, to run the same psi on an even smaller displacement motor like the 1.6... LOL

[Talon007]

haha they are getting them for a deal, even worse haha, then they jack up the price for the bigger, unecessary turbo, and rip people off even more hahaha

[Sluttypatton]

Actually, Hahn is one of the biggest importers of mitsubishi turbos in the USA, so I seriously doubt he's buying them from a truck kit. I believe the reason behind the 10 cm housing was because they wanted to keep the turbo the same throughout all of their stages, and Len Ayala's Neon was using the stage 3 kit at 28-29 PSIG, and has run them at 30-35 PSIG. At boost levels like that they had to use a big housing to avoid boost creep. The reason for using the same turbo throughout all of the stages was so that the kits would be easier to upgrade, and you wouldn't have to buy a new turbo to upgrade from stage 1 to stage 3. Also, I read an article that said he got his turbo's specced out himself, so he was probably buying them from MHI, and not a retailer.

So, in reality, the reason for the big housing was to save the consumer money, not get more of it.

[kjewer1]

I call BS on that one. A larger turbine housing will sometimes increase boost creep. Its no different that opening up the exhaust path, since it is the exhaust path. Unless they are thinking that the reduced backpressure is less likely to blow the flapper open. While that is always a concern, on a properly ported 16g with STOCK sized flapper, it wont blow open and you can still set boost low enough. Probably not low enough for the low boost levels NT runs perhaps. Also, the more boost you run the less creep you get. Creep is a set value based on your setup and current state of tune. Lets say this is a REALLY bad case and it creeps to 20 psi. At a boost setting of anything over 20 psi, there is no creep. Its when trying to run low boost that creep is a problem. After all, creep is your MINIMUM boost level you can run. So the statement that at that high boost level they had to prevent creep is backwards. I also dont see how using the same turbine housing in all the kits prevents one from having to buy a new turbo as he upgrades. The 16g and 20g use different turbine wheels, so the 16g housing would have to be re profiled for the larger turbine wheel. Thats not cheap either. So its not like you would upgrade the center section and compressor cover (different also between the two turbos) and reuse the turbine housing. I'm a bit lost there.

So if a 10 cm housing works well for the guy running 35 psi, lets put it on all the hundreds of other cars running 6 psi. I'm sorry, but that just doesnt sound logical to me. At the flow a 16g or 20g is capable of (38 pounds and 46 pounds, repsectively) there is absolutely no need for a 10 cm housing. I rode in a 2g with a "Super" 20g, and it laged as bad as my TDO6H ballistic 56 trim (65 pound turbo) does. The difference in lag going from a 7cm to a 8cm is very noticeable, never mind going almost 50% bigger. I can almsot understand if it was to reduce creep in a NT, but it has no place in thier 4g63 kits. I also doubt he had the turbos speced out to himself from MHI. MHI doesnt do custom work. Turbo vendors do. And you might be surprised to learn there are less than a handful of them for all the companies out there selling turbos. There is indeed a 10cm 16g and 20g in the catalog, nothing special about it.

Also, I dont think thier aim was to save people money. Heres why. they were charging over 700 dollars (750?) for a 16g until recently. Road race has been selling them for 600ish for years, and SBR now sells them for 480. The big is 580. (both big and small have run the same best time AFAIK) So they are charging more for thier "superior" 10cm housing, which costs them no extra to buy since it comes as a whole unit with one part number (as I understand). They are famous for being overpriced, right up there with extreme (ok, not that bad). So for buying in volume, they dont seem to be passing the savings along Considering how the turbo DSM community feels about them(we wont get into thier injectors), I cant see them being that big of a reseller. Compared to RRE, SBR, FP, etc.

I'm not trying to argue. If you have any more info, please keep sharing. I'd like to get to the bottom of this. Just out of curiousity. I have nothing against HRC either. For NTs, thier kits are the best thing going that I know of. As always, I'm no expert and I'm open to being wrong about this.

[aves911]

Getting back you your orginal post 92eclipse92, the best course of action for you to take at this point is to try and sell your car and purchase a manual transmission turbo 1g. But if you can't do that and are willing to spend a significant amount of money and have a very good friend who is also an expert mechanic, you can swap your tranny and turbo your car very easily. Check vfaq.com for how to do an auto to manual tranny swap on a 1g. As far at turbocharging, You have the 4G63 engine in your car right now. All you have to do is buy a slew of used parts from a turbo car and swap them in. Direct bolt on and you will have a FWD 1g turbo. There is some machining of the block that needs to be done as well, minor stuff. Check dsmtrader.com for used parts, and check the vfaq, dsmtuners, or dsmtalk for posts and how to as far as the turbo conversion.

If you've got a couple grand and a couple months to really get your hands dirty and work on this you should have no problems getting it done.

[Sluttypatton]

I'm no expert on HRC or the decisions they make, but when the housing subject was brought up I read a few articles, one of them (from Mopar Muscle)was in regard to the 20G

Said Hahn,"The Neon was new to me, but the concepts behind making one go fast were not." Hahn, one of the top importers of Mitsubishi turbo units in the country, specced out his own turbo, the Super 20G-N, built by Mitsubishi to take the additional abuse of nitrous; Hahn claims that they work fine at 30 to 35 pounds of boost and has yet to see one fail in competition use.

Also, from the HRC site it's self I found this

The larger 10cm turbine housing featured in Super Turbos was designed to eliminate boost creep and provide greater overall flow capacity for higher horsepower.

You are right about the 10 Cm not resisting creep any better, I was merely posting what I read on the HRC site. But they do use the same 16G for all three stages, with an optional 20G in the third stage (of course you could buy it with the stage one if you wanted).

I don't know why they used such a big housing, the only thing I can think of is at high boost there is sufficient exhaust to warrant using such a housing. At 29+ PSI there would be enough to warrant such a large housing. But the people running low boost would have no reason to run such a large housing unless they were planning on running high boost later. I still think it had to do with ease of upgrading.
However you are entirely right about the creep issue.

[kjewer1]

That article is interesting. I'm surprised to hear that. Another thing that strikes me as odd is why any one would want to run 30 psi on a 20g? At only 24 psi, I had reached its flow limits (~46-47 pounds per minute). More boost didnt giveme any more flow. Perhaps the NT motors respond differently. I also have cams, and other flow enhancers. Hmm. Thanks for the additional info.

[Sluttypatton]

Another interesting thing is that the TD05H-16G reaches its flow limits at only about 25 psig where it flows about 560 cfm and is sitting just on the edge of 60% efficiency. Any higher boost shouldn't net much more hp because the compressor chokes past that point. At least that is what I gather from the compressor map I found. Again I could be wrong, as I am still learning to read compressor maps.

[kjewer1]

You are reading it right. In fact on our turbo motors with cams, FMIC, and other flow enhancers, we find that we cant even build over 25 psi at all, never mind efficienctly Once you hit the flow limit of the turbo, you cant build any more boost. And if you hit that limit before redline, boost will drop as rpm increases. I dont like to use CFM when reading turbo maps though. Thats a volume measurement, and is very subjective unless you convert at standard pressure and temperature. I prefer a mass flow rate. Mitsu maps (unhacked) will read in metric units, or kg/cm3. Garret maps are written in lbs/min typically. I like to convert everything to lbs/min, because as a general rule, every pound is 10 hp. Using that 16g map as an example, it maxes out around 45 lbs/min. (and on my car, that indeed was the limit as measured by my airflow sensor. But by using some tricks I got flow up to 39. No measurable increase in power though ) So thats about 450 hp. And in fact, when you do the math for 16g powered cars running 11.8-12.0 at 114-115 mph (My best was 12.0 at 114, but I only borrowed the turbo for a couple weeks) at our weight (~3350 with me in it) wheel hp comes in around 380ish. So it all works out. Its not exact, but its a great way to size a turbo, aside from copying what worked on another car of the same type. But I'm rambling again...

[Sluttypatton]

Generally I read maps in m^3/sec because that is what Mitsu uses for the most part, I just find it a little easier to grasp cfm in terms of volume of air. Also, when reading in m^3/sec, the units are much smaller so the numbers on the graph generally go up in 0.05 m^3/sec intervals and I find it slightly more difficult to work with decimals. Not all that hard, but whole numbers are just a little easier.

I wish there was a forced induction category that was non automobile specific. I've been trying to catch igor's attention so he will put one up. I guess this is the closest thing to one I fit in to for now, as the 420a is also used in mitsu's.

[92eclipse92]

Thanks for all the reply.
for now im just gonna try to sell this car and get a 1G turbo with manual tranny. if nobody wants to buy it ... (hope not) ... i'll just gonna do your suggestions ... thanx again

-92eclipse92-

[mitsufreak95]

I've been at this ling enough to know that if you wanna boost your GS, You are way better off selling it, use that money and all the money you plan on putting into the GS and just buy a GS-T, GS-X or Talon TSI AWD. Everything in the engine bay in a GS is completely backwards from that of a GS-T. You would probably spend well over $5k just trying to get the 4G63T in it. So like I said, sell the GS, use that cash and the money you plan on waisting on parts and labor on your GS and buy a turbo Eclipse or Talon. You can do so much with them, the mods just don't stop!!!!!

[defiancy]

Originally Posted by mitsufreak95

I've been at this ling enough to know that if you wanna boost your GS, You are way better off selling it, use that money and all the money you plan on putting into the GS and just buy a GS-T, GS-X or Talon TSI AWD. Everything in the engine bay in a GS is completely backwards from that of a GS-T. You would probably spend well over $5k just trying to get the 4G63T in it. So like I said, sell the GS, use that cash and the money you plan on waisting on parts and labor on your GS and buy a turbo Eclipse or Talon. You can do so much with them, the mods just don't stop!!!!!

Why did you bring this up?

This thread is almost three years old.