Attempts stall, Idle Pulses 600-800 rpms, horrible MPG

[tomj76]

Raw fuel leaking out the exhaust manifold - exhaust y-pipe connection....

Ran the engine for 20 to 30 secs...

Spark plug gaps....

If you've really got copious amounts of raw fuel leaking (blowing?) out that connection, a spark plug gap that's within a factor of two of the spec isn't very likely to cause this. Twenty to thirty seconds is not very long to fill up a whole exhaust pipe (or even one cylinder for that matter), so the leak you're looking at sounds to be large.

If an injector was leaking continuously (or more than one), then it could result in much more fuel than something that's only happening while the engine is running. An injector could be stuck open either mechanically or electrically. As mentioned, one wire of each injector is connected to VPWR at all times, and the PCM grounds the other (through a transistor in the PCM) for a length of time according to the amount of fuel that is needed. Most of the time this wire is not grounded, so a normal voltmeter will read only a small voltage (maybe a few 0.1 volts) across the wires (not to ground). I used an oscilloscope recently to look at these voltages on my Windstar and was able to observe the voltage waveform. I also tried a DVM on it, but it recorded only a small voltage.

I also checked my injectors for leaks without using any special equipment. I pulled them out of the lower intake manifold, leaving them on the fuel rails which was still connected to the fuel lines and disconnected wire to each injector, then I turned the on the key to get fuel pressure. Looking at each injector I could see that none were leaking. I also checked each one for operation (being very careful since highly flamable fuel and electrical sparks are involved here) by applying 12 volts from the battery to the terminals of each injector. I let the spray from each injector blow into a clear glass jar so that I could see the volume and pattern of the spray. I didn't do this, but you could also connect the PCM wires to each injector and make sure that there are no leaks with the key off and with the key on.

[wiswind]

A quick test to see if you have a injector physically leaking is to turn the key to the ON position, but don't crank the motor.
This will bring the fuel system up to pressure.
Then turn the key OFF.
After a few minutes, check for fuel pressure at the fuel rail.
If you have fuel pressure, not dropping significantly.....then you don't have a big leakage.
If it drops significantly, then you have a leak.

To check if a injector is leaking with Key ON, motor OFF, you could do the same test, but remove the fuse for the fuel pump after the fuel pressure is up.....
Then, leaving the Key ON, motor OFF.......check the fuel pressure after a few minutes to see if it drops significantly.

These checks would see if you have a mechanical leakage (on new injectors, I hope not, but worth checking....maybe a dirt particle on the internal injector valve seat) or a electrical activation of a injector.
It sure is a faster check than trying to measure voltages at each injector.

The spark check (using a timing light) that I mentioned is to see if you have a dead cylinder as far as spark goes.....you know you have spark to some cylinders......as the motor runs (somewhat). No spark to a cylinder will send raw fuel into the exhaust.
There is a spark to each cylinder 2 times in each cycle......1 spark is wasted, during the exhaust stroke.....which I would expect would still ignite the air/fuel mixture.....(backfire?)......the other spark is the one that ignites....and causes the motor to run as it should.

I do remember all the fuss that you went through getting the correct fuel injectors......so I would expect that they are the correct ones.

Sorry I don't have more to offer.....I am not a mechanic.....just trying to think through this along with you.

[searcherrr]

Today's News:
Replaced all plugs with properly gapped plugs. I became a circus contortion act to do it too.... that is without removing the intake plenum... i just removed the center air pipe piece and pushed my big body to the limits. #1 spark plug was the hardest and I was able to squeeze my left arm down there over the coils to get at it.

The spec is .054" and all the plugs I removed today were between .039" and .046" randomly all different. I don't know what you meant by "factor of 2", but to me thats just stupid for them to have installed them that way and from what i know should cause engine running problems. All plugs were coated charred black and smelled of fuel..... every one. I'm gonna get some pictures up tonight or tomorrow.

I'm not for a moment suggesting that fuel spewing out the ypipe connection is from mis gapped burnt spark plugs, but I was hoping that the plugs were in such bad shape that the fuel coming out was because they weren't getting burned.

Status after plugs replaced: Fuel still spitting out the ypipe connection point, van still acting like its misfiring, though it is not running "as bad" now. I would like to explore this further with you guys so lets keep up discussion, but I have called my insurance company to have it towed to the offending shop tomorrow.

I ran it for about 15 - 20 seconds and the puddle that came out was about 3 inches wide on the ground; not a thick/deep puddle, but spread out evenly on the pavement.

At this point I'm not sure if the PCM was fried and is sending constant fuel injector WOT signals (guessing at that) or what the deal is.

I have not tested the plug wires with the timing light. Perhaps one or more of them is bad. I don't know what else to say at this point. The performance coils should be working fine. They resistance tested fine, but even if they weren't it wouldn't cause gas to constantly spit out into the exhaust.

Since my injectors are new, I would bet the issue is electrically stuck open. I just don't know why because I can't run the engine long enough to hopefully get a code to pop up.

I don't believe any injector is "leaking" per say, but is more likely being held open by voltage. I guess tomorrow I can check pressure though before I send the van off.

THAT SUGGESTION FOR REMOVING THE FUSE FOR THE FUEL PUMP and checking for sharp drops in the fuel pressure is BRILLIANT !!!!! WHY DIDN'T I THINK OF THAT !!!! LOL - I'll try that too tomorrow before the tow if I have time to before they get here.

I really do not want to remove the intake again. It would be easier to do it again though since I've been through it now, but I really don't want to. In order to do all those injector tests thats what I'd have to do and I don't have the patience for it right now since I spent 5 days putting it back together all nice'n spec.

Is there a SAFE way to bench test spark plugs out of the engine?

If I use the timing light to determine if I'm getting spark to the plugs via the plug wires how safe is that? Could the spark jump to me or some other part of the van during testing?

Brief thoughts that would cause this?
1. Fried PCM?

2. Improperly grounded injector harness wiring (somehow due to wires having previously melted together) or charred wiring.. no good anymore.

3. O2 sensor's no good?? Could an O2 sensor poisoned to death by fuel cause an overly continuous rich condition?

4. TPS gone bad?? Could the TPS be just not functioning at all or sending WOT signals causing all this rush of excessive fuel? TPS is the original. I have a new one I bought a long time ago, but never put it in cause I didn't want to mess up the setting. I guess I should have just tried this by now.

No sorries from anyone. Ya'll give me wonderful ideas that are thought of differently than I'd think to try. Keep it coming and tell me what ya'll think of my 1 - 4 ideas. You guys rock! I Love you guys! lol

[searcherrr]

#5 - Forgot to mention, Ignition Control Module - Maybe a long shot, but maybe not. I haven't checked voltage to this connector either. Always meant to, but I figured if this was bad that I'd get a code.......yet again.... engine not running long enough to get a code.

I went by the shop today with the old plugs and showed'em. They said I'm running extremely rich on all cylinders, but are seeming to focus on the front bank since I can literally see fuel coming out. I told'em for all I know fuel is coming out the back bank too, but I just don't see it on the ground.

Towing it over there Monday morning. I was extremely worn out and tired from all the work on the plugs yesterday and overslept so I figure getting it to them at the start of the week is more preferred anyway as they confirmed when I went over there.

Gonna perform a few small easy tests this weekend since I still have it. Gonna do the ones ya'll suggest and I just realized that I have a spark plug tester that I've never opened. lol - I have cool things I didn't even know about. It hooks up "flush" between the wire and plug with a light in between, so that'll prove very useful - I HOPE.

[wiswind]

"Grounding" the fuel injector harness......
Think of the injector firing in terms of the only electrical connections......a constant +12Volts....and a momentary ground......provided by the PCM.
The only ground should be the ground that the PCM provides to that 1 wire per injector.
I would do the fuel pressure test......Key ON.....pump runs to provide fuel pressure......remove fuel pump fuse (as our older windstars have the fuel pump relay inside the CCRM unit)......and monitor fuel pressure.
This pressure drop should be major......to be providing all that fuel out the exhaust.
Remember....1 gallon is good for a least 15 miles......at 2000'ish RPM.......about 15 minutes.
At idle......a LOT longer.
What "should" be inside the cylinder when the spark is applied is gasoline VAPOR, not liquid.
So.....in short......you have WAY more gasoline going into the cylinder(s) than what is normal.......

I was hoping for a "smoking gun"......1 or 2 spark plugs that are super wet...and the others being OK.
Worth hoping for......but at least you know.....even though it was not what we hoped for......and now you have them all with the correct gap.

[searcherrr]

Aerostar - It occurred to me yesterday that every time I go over there the shop constantly wants to call the Windstar an Aerostar and just about all of them do it when we're talking about it. I looked up the gap of plugs for a 95 3.0L Aerostar (even though my Windstar is a 3.8L) and found the gap to be .042 - .046" - VERY close to what all the old plugs were gapped at.... even still.... none of them were right on the money at one set gap for even that wrong range. I'm 100% sure this is what they did..... looked up Aerostar instead. Thats where I live everybody..... in loser A.D.D.-ville (attention deficit disorder).

If there is anyone that tells you life in Louisiana is any good, they are full of it, aside from the food. The rest of the people here are morons.

Injector harness idea - I was thinking about my limited access to the injectors now that its all back together and I came up with an clever idea. Since I've fully continuity and resistance tested the injector harness to still be usable and good, I do however have full access to the MAIN Injector harness connector just below to the side of the coolant temperature sensor. Its very easy to get to.

I was thinking that I can run various voltage tests here and just see which wires are grounding for extended periods, or IF THEY ARE, because ya'll say I should only see a brief (if any) voltage across the 2 wires per injector. I could just leave my probe connected to the VPWR wire and systematically run through all other 6 wires in that 1 connector..... thereby testing easily all the signals that are or are not getting to the 6 injectors.

Yes, this leaves out the injector connector harness itself, but again I can't reach it unless I take the intake apart again.

Not sure what I'm going to do tonight. Feeling lazy about all this right now. Might just read up on some tech data and tests to do for the ICM and TPS to add to my list of "TO DO's" from what ya'll have told me too.

[searcherrr]

I found a test to rule out a bad PCM. Very simple and I like it that way.

Basically it says to stick a light probe (test lamp) between test pin 71 or 97 (VPWR) and suspect injector test pin. If the light is "DIM" (key point) then its normal. If the light is "BRIGHT" its abnormal and instantly the pinpoint test says to replace the PCM.

I think what you said here Carl, "What "should" be inside the cylinder when the spark is applied is gasoline VAPOR, not liquid." - says everything. The charcoal black plugs after 10k miles too. It wasn't really oily... there was "some" oiliness to them, but most of the blackness was flat debris-less on the surface coated like wrought iron colored black spray paint..... which I believe comes from all the leftover burnt fuel.

Since all obvious wiring issues have been repaired and I had several electrical anomalies (bad alt, bad battery, shorted - melted PCM wires related to injector's and O2 and fans, blown fuse "s" from injector wiring testing at KOEO, bad dropping resistor) I wouldn't be surprised if the PCM got wacked at some point.

I sure would like to see a BRIGHT LIGHT indicating PCM needs replacing, because maybe then this damn thing will be over with. If this happens I should be able to get the PCM under warranty or at the Shop's cost.

[wiswind]

The black would be carbon.
The fuel burning process produces water and Carbon, as the 2 major elements left over.

[tomj76]

I've got to tell you that I think this spark plug gap thing is a rabbit trail...

If you get 20 mpg at 2000 rpm at 60 mph, then ...


2000 rotations/minute * 1 hour / 60 miles * 20 miles/gallon * 60 minutes/hour =

40,000 rotations/gallon or 1/40,000 gallon/rotation of the crankshaft. At 128 fl oz per gallon, this is the same as 0.0032 oz for each rotation of the crankshaft.

Now, if you run that engine at idle for one minute, the maximum amount of fuel that can leak out (if none of the cylinders fired, which isn't true because the engine is running) then the amount of fuel available is:

500 rotations/minute * 1 minute * .0032 fl oz/rotation = 1.6 fl oz.



In half a minute, you'd see have as much, 0.8 fl oz. which is not very much (less than two tablespoons). Also, given that your engine is running, then it's less than this amount, probably no more than half as much.

Static flow rates (flow rate of an injector that is held open) of an injector is about 16 lbs/hr. Since gasoline weighs about 8 lbs/gallon, that translates to 2 gallons/hr from a stuck injector, or about 4.3 fl oz/minute. Six injectors all stuck open would offer almost 26 fl oz (a very substantial amount).

I think the large amount of fuel you're seeing is much more likely to come from one or more injectors held open continuously. As wiswind suggested, the easiest check is to check the fuel pressure drop with the fuel pump off which can be done by pulling the fuse, or by simply turning the key off (which will check for mechanical failure of the injector), or turning the key on without starting the engine and leaving it on (since the fuel pump is only energized for two seconds after key on, with the engine off).

[12Ounce]

Glad you fellas got back down safe from the space station!

[searcherrr]

I don't think that by simply turning off the key I could do Wiswind's test correctly. I think he wants power still going to the injectors while the fuel pump is disengaged.

No worries, I will be doing ya'lls recommendations tomorrow. I just don't have the patience for it today.

I did however decide to fiddle with my thingy from Hong Kong that finally came in a while back (thingy = OBDI, OBDII, CAN, etc.. interface) and some free OBD softwares I found online. I found about 6 of them I think and tested them all in my Mom's Nissan Maxima. I then tested them in my Dad's 99 Jeep Cherokee Sport.

The test in the Maxima went very well and was able to get a great deal of information from the computer reliably and I found out mom's car is running Lean too. We'd suspected a clogged fuel filter on it for some time now. Unfortunately on my Dad's Jeep there was a communication error/problem so I could never get a good feed of data going.

Finally I went to the Demonic VooDoo cursed Windstar and let the engine run for say 1 - 2 minutes while it struggled along.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
WINDSTAR OBD2 TEST REPORT:

Connection was made with just 1 of the programs - EasyOBDII cause I didn't want to chance running the engine longer to try others too.

1. OBD2 Compliance - On the 2001 (OBD2) Maxima, the program was easily able to verify OBD compliance. I know 95 was a border year for OBD2 compliance, but the 95 Windstar IS OBD2 compliant, so I do not understand why I wouldn't be able to get this information from the computer if it was functioning properly. This leads me to think further that the PCM is toast, but it could also mean nothing if OBD2 compliance information wasn't programmed into the PCM I have for the 95 year. I do think this is not the case though because this is a 3rd Party NEW PCM that was installed when I had my Original Engine.

2. CLOSED LOOP - Was running in closed loop when I looked at fuel trims and there was definitely not time for the engine to warm up enough to reach closed loop. It was still running fast idle to warm up actually. Though the misfire test completed and did not show an error, we know its misfiring. Along with the CLOSED LOOP msg it also said "CLOSED LOOP, but fault exists" - again this is when I looked at fuel trims. Wiswind - I can't remember what you said it was regarding fuel that was not reported on our Windstars? Could you remind me? Thanks. I'm just hoping this wasn't an erroneous msg. I don't think it was though. Fuel Trims on the Maxima checked out fine and did not say CLOSED LOOP when the engine was still warming up.

3. RICH - Well, we know this too already, but it was nice to see the computer agree. Fuel trim bank 1 reported Rich. Fuel trim bank 2 was not reporting.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't remember what exactly the O2's were doing cause I was getting nervous about letting the engine continue to run and I was flipping screens and my eyes were dried out too.

I am going to a friend's house right now who has a Ford Truck. I'm gonna test his computer too so I can have another baseline test to work from.

I'm still gonna do ya'lls suggestions tomorrow, but I'm leaning towards a fried computer. It might've fried when Fuse "S" blew during injector installation and wiring repair or more likely it fried when it first started spitting fuel in the driveway a few months back when this pursuit to an answer started.

Misfires - Generically I have found out that they are caused by:

1) spark plugs and wires - We can cross out the Plugs. Wires are 10k miles old, but I still should check them.

2) bad piston rings- you'd be able to tell if you have high oil consumption
New engine, and no high oil consumption.

3) ignition coil packs - Tomorrow I will swap in the old coil pack, just to be sure, but I do not believe my new performance coils are causing problems.

4) THE COMPUTER -"thats right, if many cylinders misfire, you should check that computer module that the ignition coil packs sit on. IT is a big possibility and is a recipe for disaster if it gets really bad. I would have that comp. checked out first." - Gonna have the shop look into this Monday.Found 1 - 4 on another forum just trying to find a usual hit list for misfires.

I know compression can be a cause too, but if this new engine has bad compression I'll be very surprised especially since its from Jasper.

[searcherrr]

Originally Posted by 12Ounce

Glad you fellas got back down safe from the space station!

Ohhhhhhhhh man, this was the laugh of my night!! Thanks 12Ounce!!! I think I might have some 12 Ouncer's tonight too! LOL

I know right...... Windstars have to be this complicated? JEEEEEEEEEZZZZZZZ!!!!!!

[12Ounce]

The things we love enslave us.
... some rock song.

[wiswind]

As to the fuel pressure test......I suggested doing it 2 ways.
One turning the key ON.....wait a couple seconds for fuel pump to bring up the pressure.....then turn Key OFF.....monitor fuel pressure after key is OFF.
This would see if you have a injector staying OPEN due to a mechanical issue (dirt particle on valve seat, jammed, etc).

The other suggestion was to Turn Key ON.....let fuel pump bring system up to pressure......remove fuel pump fuse.....monitor fuel pressure.
This will see if the PCM is keeping a fuel injector open.
Point here being.....things are somewhat more powered up with the key in the ON position.

PCM....didn't you replace that at some stage?....if so.....do you still have the old one around?


What the OBDII system does not monitor......Fuel flow or fuel pressure.
The PCM does have a connection to the line going to the fuel pump....and could monitor if it has power going to it.....
I do not know if the firmware in the PCM utilizes this input.
However there is NO sensor for either fuel pressure or fuel flow......so we know that the PCM is not monitoring that.

[tomj76]

>Glad you fellas got back down safe from the space station!

I think I get the point.