support the Marine acused of murder

[zombiesarebad]

Originally Posted by taranaki

I fail to see the relevance of this statement.The murderer fired his weapon because he believed his victim was still alive.

There seems to be a notion that somehow it's ok for bad things to happen in good wars.I'd go along with that notion,save for the fact that this is not a 'good' war.It's been a pack of lies from the word go.

Ask yourself who was responsible for Sept 11.Was it a bunch of 'insurgents' fighting for their own country in Fallujah? Like fuck.

This war is a crock and the man that started it should be impeached.

They say that dissent is patriotic. Maybe it's true. It seems you are very loyal to Saddam's regime.
I'm not even going to discuss the fact that everyone believed there were weapons and all that, not just Bush. But come on. The insurgents are just innocent good people defending their country? Wrong! They're people who were loyal to Saddam or Bin Laden and trying to keep the Iraqis from being free. They are terrorists. I can't believe someone would think they are innocent good people.

[mellowboy]

Originally Posted by zombiesarebad

They say that dissent is patriotic. Maybe it's true. It seems you are very loyal to Saddam's regime.
I'm not even going to discuss the fact that everyone believed there were weapons and all that, not just Bush. But come on. The insurgents are just innocent good people defending their country? Wrong! They're people who were loyal to Saddam or Bin Laden and trying to keep the Iraqis from being free. They are terrorists. I can't believe someone would think they are innocent good people.

U just love CNN dont you?

[Heep]

Originally Posted by zombiesarebad

I'm not even going to discuss the fact that everyone believed there were weapons and all that, not just Bush.

I didn't right from the get-go. Clearly my Prime Minister didn't think so either because he went against American pressure to join the fight and decided to stay out of it.

The insurgents are just innocent good people defending their country? Wrong! They're people who were loyal to Saddam or Bin Laden and trying to keep the Iraqis from being free. They are terrorists. I can't believe someone would think they are innocent good people.

Would you defend your country if it were being taken over by people raving about how evil your government is? Guess what - you'd be one of the oh-so-evil insurgents. I dare you to go ask that 10 year old Iraqi found with gun in hand if he's trying to terrorize the world, or if he just wants his home back. Oh wait, you can't. Your country killed him.

[YogsVR4]

Originally Posted by Heep

Would you defend your country if it were being taken over by people raving about how evil your government is? Guess what - you'd be one of the oh-so-evil insurgents. I dare you to go ask that 10 year old Iraqi found with gun in hand if he's trying to terrorize the world, or if he just wants his home back. Oh wait, you can't. Your country killed him.

You're really reaching for a moral equivelence there Heep. Once people start playing the "what-if" game, there really isn't much that can't be justifidied or demeaned.

[zombiesarebad]

Originally Posted by Heep

I didn't right from the get-go. Clearly my Prime Minister didn't think so either because he went against American pressure to join the fight and decided to stay out of it.




Would you defend your country if it were being taken over by people raving about how evil your government is? Guess what - you'd be one of the oh-so-evil insurgents. I dare you to go ask that 10 year old Iraqi found with gun in hand if he's trying to terrorize the world, or if he just wants his home back. Oh wait, you can't. Your country killed him.

So wait? Are you saying Saddam was not evil? If the US were being taken over, yes, I would be an 'insurgent'. But last time I checked, Bush was not operating rape rooms, torturing children in front of their parents, and taking out whole towns with chemical gases. As for the ten year old Iraqi... poor kid. A product of Muslim extremism just doing what he has been taught. But guess what? There are ten year old kids in the middle east shooting people just for being christian, because that is what they were taught. You've got to understand that the middle east is a hotbed of hatred right now, and if we stand by and let it fester then it's only going to get worse. No, we did not cause this hatred. If you would pay attention to history you'd realize that these countries have been violent and warring since biblical times.

P.S. good for your prime minister. I bet right now he is sitting back in his office sipping a glass of wine, patting himself on the back thinking about all the "great things" he's done for world peace, while people elsewhere are actually doing something about it.

[zombiesarebad]

Originally Posted by mellowboy

U just love CNN dont you?

excuse me? CNN is the american version of al jezeera

[mellowboy]

Originally Posted by zombiesarebad

excuse me? CNN is the american version of al jezeera

And did i say i believe al-jazeera?? I didn't think so.

[Heep]

Originally Posted by YogsVR4

You're really reaching for a moral equivelence there Heep. Once people start playing the "what-if" game, there really isn't much that can't be justifidied or demeaned.

I believe you're right about that, but nevertheless I feel "what-if" questions need to be asked. So many times we assume everyone is just like us, and want all the same things as us. We need to ask "what-if" questions to avoid such assumptions that just escalate situations. What if they don't want us invading? What if these people don't know how to live outside of a Saddam style government, and will fail with anything else? What if we were Iraqi?

Endless questions that can never be answered. I just feel they are necessary to help us better understand others.

Originally Posted by zombiesarebad

So wait? Are you saying Saddam was not evil?

I never said that, and never will say that. In fact, if you'd read elsewhere, you'd know that I'm also very anti-Saddam.

But last time I checked, Bush was not operating rape rooms, torturing children in front of their parents, and taking out whole towns with chemical gases.

Another thing I've said before is that Bush deserves one kick in the nuts for every two that Saddam gets. I feel Saddam is a horrible person, and is worse than Bush, but I certainly don't see Bush as the world's savior.

As for the ten year old Iraqi... poor kid. A product of Muslim extremism just doing what he has been taught.

Perhaps. Maybe you're right, maybe I'm right - neither of us will ever know. But the simple fact that the boy was gunned down while defending against people invading his home suggests, to me at least, that he wasn't trying to terrorize anyone. In fact, we don't even know that he was Muslim, like you've just claimed.

You've got to understand that the middle east is a hotbed of hatred right now, and if we stand by and let it fester then it's only going to get worse.

Indeed it is. However, in my opinion at the least, one nation of hate is just being overthrown by another nation of hate. (Not all Americans are like this, neither are all Iraqis - I'm talking about countries as wholes) America (and unfortunately enough, most countries) has a record, past and present of hating Iraqis, of hating Muslims, of hating blacks, of hating gays, of hating neighbours, whatever.

Basically I just don't see the US having any right to proclaim themselves holier than anyone else, nor invading upon that premise.

P.S. good for your prime minister. I bet right now he is sitting back in his office sipping a glass of wine, patting himself on the back thinking about all the "great things" he's done for world peace, while people elsewhere are actually doing something about it.

Well, that Prime Minister actually just finished 10 years in office and has been replaced by the next leader of the same political party. However, he's not sitting around patting himself on the back. He's working to fix Canada's problems first, all while committing $300 million to Iraq to clean up the US's mess. Don't make assumptions like that.

[mellowboy]

Originally Posted by zombiesarebad

So wait? Are you saying Saddam was not evil?

Even if hes bad. As muslims they have to defend there leader against non muslims. Its like goin against your brother.

Originally Posted by zombiesarebad

But last time I checked, Bush was not operating rape rooms, torturing children in front of their parents,

Wheres the proof? Do you know the story behind the men being "tortured?" We never heard of women being raped or children being tortured. The only rape stories we heard is from UDAY only.

Originally Posted by zombiesarebad

A product of Muslim extremism just doing what he has been taught. But guess what? There are ten year old kids in the middle east shooting people just for being christian,

WHat does this have to do with a kid defending his country?

Originally Posted by zombiesarebad

You've got to understand that the middle east is a hotbed of hatred right now, and if we stand by and let it fester then it's only going to get worse. No, we did not cause this hatred. If you would pay attention to history you'd realize that these countries have been violent and warring since biblical times.

Re read history. Muslims, christians and jews lived peace amongst each other. Read the history on the Abbassids.

[zombiesarebad]

I never said that, and never will say that. In fact, if you'd read elsewhere, you'd know that I'm also very anti-Saddam.

Another thing I've said before is that Bush deserves one kick in the nuts for every two that Saddam gets. I feel Saddam is a horrible person, and is worse than Bush, but I certainly don't see Bush as the world's savior.

Perhaps. Maybe you're right, maybe I'm right - neither of us will ever know. But the simple fact that the boy was gunned down while defending against people invading his home suggests, to me at least, that he wasn't trying to terrorize anyone. In fact, we don't even know that he was Muslim, like you've just claimed.

Indeed it is. However, in my opinion at the least, one nation of hate is just being overthrown by another nation of hate. (Not all Americans are like this, neither are all Iraqis - I'm talking about countries as wholes) America (and unfortunately enough, most countries) has a record, past and present of hating Iraqis, of hating Muslims, of hating blacks, of hating gays, of hating neighbours, whatever.

Basically I just don't see the US having any right to proclaim themselves holier than anyone else, nor invading upon that premise.
Well, that Prime Minister actually just finished 10 years in office and has been replaced by the next leader of the same political party. However, he's not sitting around patting himself on the back. He's working to fix Canada's problems first, all while committing $300 million to Iraq to clean up the US's mess. Don't make assumptions like that.[/quote]

I should have never gotten into such a discussion. I know that the American is always wrong in the eyes of the pacifist intillectuals across the globe. But it's time for these people to address reality. What should have been done in Iraq? The best intelligence in the world believed there were weapons of mass destruction. We know that he had used them in the past. He had invaded neighboring countried in the past. We know he was involved in training terrorists. We know that he had kicked out weapons inspectors in the past, wouldn't allow flyovers or unannounced inspections. He wouldn't allow inspectors into certain places... what were we supposed to think? And now we know that he had people from the UN and the countries that were against the war on his payroll so that he could use oil for food money to arm himself instead of feed that 10 year old with the AK-47. We also found documents linking him to Osama Bin Laden. We even know that he met with Bin Laden. We also found mass graves and torture rooms, in case you haven't seen the pictures... What more do you want? I refuse to believe that just because Iraqis have been oppressed under Saddam for 30 years that they cannot understand or do not want freedom. Realize that what you are seeing on the news is a couple of trouble spots in an otherwise relatively peaceful country. Maybe there were weapons, maybe not. We certainly didn't find any, but... what do you think was in those trucks were that were seen leaving inspection sites on satellite photos just before the inspectors arrived? The French ambassador to the UN suggested that maybe it was "perhaps a trucker's picnic" (direct quote). These are the people that know what's best for the world? Canada, France, Germany, whoever... they can throw all the money into Iraq that they want to. God forbid they get their hands dirty. But realizing that the U.S. has at least matched any other country in aid and also forgiven billions of dollars in Iraqi debt.

Not that they would be much help anyway... I'm sure you know about your (the canadian) government buying used military equipment and having ships sink at sea from malfunctions. To me it seems pathetic that the aforementioned countries are so mad that the U.S. has decided to enforce the U.N resolution that they all signed- the 17th one I might add.

If this is an invasion, why are they electing their own leader? Why are they finally being fed? Howcome they looked so happy when Saddam's statues were brought down?

I just see a lot of complaining and not a lot of action. But keep complaining about this "country of hate" or "great satan" or whatever other name you can come up with for us. Keep claiming you've brought peace to the world just by throwing money around. But realize Iraqis wouldn't be getting this money if nothing had been done, as countries like yours proposed.

[zombiesarebad]

Originally Posted by mellowboy

Even if hes bad. As muslims they have to defend there leader against non muslims. Its like goin against your brother.

Wheres the proof? Do you know the story behind the men being "tortured?" We never heard of women being raped or children being tortured. The only rape stories we heard is from UDAY only.

WHat does this have to do with a kid defending his country?

Re read history. Muslims, christians and jews lived peace amongst each other. Read the history on the Abbassids.

I don't really think I need to respond to this. But I will.

"Even if he's bad"... what does this mean. He might not be? If you could ask those people in the mass graves, I would think they might tell you saddam is bad.

As for going against your brother... How can you believe that if someone is doing something wrong it is okay if they are your brother?

The proof of not just one man, but many men women and children being tortured are all through the news. It's well documented and well known, but I can't force you to believe it.

If the kid cared about his country, he would be for elections and freedom from oppression. I would suggest that he was fighting for Saddam, not his country, but I think the truth is he knows little about either. He is just doing what he is told.

So I should re-read history? The Muslims and Jews don't hate each other? wow. That's news to me, and probably the rest of the world.

[T4 Primera]

zombiesarebad,

You are making lots of statements as if they are incontravertible fact. Almost every one of your assumptions are debatable, and have in fact been debated on this forum previously.

Perhaps you should spend some time with the search function in this forum to see what ground has already been covered.

I don't want you to think that because your assumptions of fact aren't being challenged that they are accepted as read. It's highly likely that many of us are just tired of going over the same old ground.

[twospirits]

Originally Posted by Heep

However, in my opinion at the least, one nation of hate is just being overthrown by another nation of hate. (Not all Americans are like this, neither are all Iraqis - I'm talking about countries as wholes) America (and unfortunately enough, most countries) has a record, past and present of hating Iraqis, of hating Muslims, of hating blacks, of hating gays, of hating neighbours, whatever.

Basically I just don't see the US having any right to proclaim themselves holier than anyone else, nor invading upon that premise.

Well, that Prime Minister actually just finished 10 years in office and has been replaced by the next leader of the same political party. However, he's not sitting around patting himself on the back. He's working to fix Canada's problems first, all while committing $300 million to Iraq to clean up the US's mess. Don't make assumptions like that.

I agree, very good point. With so many internal problems that the US has why do we have to go out and try to fix every other wordly problem.

Originally Posted by zombiesarebad

I know that the American is always wrong in the eyes of the pacifist intillectuals across the globe. But it's time for these people to address reality. What should have been done in Iraq? The best intelligence in the world believed there were weapons of mass destruction. We know that he had used them in the past. He had invaded neighboring countried in the past. We know he was involved in training terrorists. We know that he had kicked out weapons inspectors in the past, wouldn't allow flyovers or unannounced inspections. He wouldn't allow inspectors into certain places... what were we supposed to think?.

Reality? Am I the only one that dares to say and to think "Who the hell cares"

As been mentioned so much in the past threads, there is no link between the actual attackers of 911 and Iraq. So we had no reason to go in there. So what if Sadam was a dictator, there are plenty of other dictators all over the world and yet nothing is done about them. Why, cause maybe they have something that Iraq does not have, actual weapons of mass destruction. Nothing/nobody stopped India, Pakistan, China, North Korea from getting access to A-Bombs. Why should we meddle in Iraqs affairs. Nobody asked us too. They weren't, are, or ever will be a threat to the US. Instead of putting our troops in harms way, spending billions of dollars and getting a hated reputation, we should be taking care of our own problems. Education, Immigration, Healthcare, etc etc. The only threat Iraq could at the time be able to do was strike Israel, no one else, and last I checked they (Israel) can take care of themselves quite nicely, Shoot even they have the A-Bomb.

TS out

[mellowboy]

Originally Posted by zombiesarebad

I don't really think I need to respond to this. But I will.

"Even if he's bad"... what does this mean. He might not be? If you could ask those people in the mass graves, I would think they might tell you saddam is bad.

that i will not tell you. I know something but i'd rather have you guys hear it from the man himself.

Originally Posted by zombiesarebad

As for going against your brother... How can you believe that if someone is doing something wrong it is okay if they are your brother?

Like i said. In OUR belief , we have to protect our country NO MATTER HOW BAD THE PERSON IS! Like i said before its like goin against your brother.

Originally Posted by zombiesarebad

So I should re-read history? The Muslims and Jews don't hate each other? wow. That's news to me, and probably the rest of the world.

You're truly an idiot. GO READ!

[Heep]

Originally Posted by zombiesarebad

I should have never gotten into such a discussion.

Of course you should have. What better way is there for us to determine what we really believe? Discussion here has certainly changed my mind before, and I feel I'm a better person because of it.

I know that the American is always wrong in the eyes of the pacifist intillectuals across the globe. But it's time for these people to address reality. What should have been done in Iraq?

No one, without significant hindsight, can answer that. Time will reveal what should have been done.

The best intelligence in the world believed there were weapons of mass destruction.

http://www.un.org/Depts/unmovic/new/...s-2004-924.pdf

The UN seemed, to me at least, to have had decent wraps on the situation - more than the US did anyways. Also, if that's what the "best intelligence" agency in the world came up with, should we be trusting them?

We know that he had used them in the past.

So has the U.S.

He had invaded neighboring countried in the past.

Not neighbouring in the U.S.'s case, but we've certainly seen their invasions...

We know he was involved in training terrorists. We know that he had kicked out weapons inspectors in the past,

This I don't have enough information about, a link would be appreciated.

wouldn't allow flyovers or unannounced inspections. He wouldn't allow inspectors into certain places... what were we supposed to think?

Would the U.S. allow Iraq to fly over and perform unannounced inspections of their weapon stores? What are they supposed to think?

What I'm trying to say is that every one of us, American, Canadian, Iraqi, whatever, needs to objectively evaluate our own country's position before accusing another's.

And now we know that he had people from the UN and the countries that were against the war on his payroll so that he could use oil for food money to arm himself instead of feed that 10 year old with the AK-47. We also found documents linking him to Osama Bin Laden. We even know that he met with Bin Laden. We also found mass graves and torture rooms, in case you haven't seen the pictures... What more do you want?

Again, I'm not knowledgable enough in these issues to comment - a link would be appreciated.

I refuse to believe that just because Iraqis have been oppressed under Saddam for 30 years that they cannot understand or do not want freedom.

You refuse? You can't, or you won't?

Also, what is freedom? Those people had the freedom to attempt a revolution. They had the freedom to accept what was happening, or fight back. Hell, Saddam even had the freedom to do whatever the hell he wanted! If Saddam himself was demonstrative of freedom, is it such a good thing to have?

Not that they would be much help anyway... I'm sure you know about your (the canadian) government buying used military equipment and having ships sink at sea from malfunctions.

Indeed I do know of it - the crewman that died was from my small town, and I personally know his family. I don't condone my country buying used equipment, and am upset that they did. I like my country, but I won't agree with everything it does.

To me it seems pathetic that the aforementioned countries are so mad that the U.S. has decided to enforce the U.N resolution that they all signed- the 17th one I might add.

Two questions here. First, what are we mad at/about? Second, can you provide a link to the content of the 17th UN resolution? I tried searching for one but was unable to find it, and I don't know what it is.

If this is an invasion, why are they electing their own leader?

Because the U.S. has dictated they do so.

Why are they finally being fed? Howcome they looked so happy when Saddam's statues were brought down?

Because they were happy to see him gone. Again, I don't like or condone Saddam, but I don't feel we have the right to say "we're better" and throw him into a cell.

I just see a lot of complaining and not a lot of action. But keep complaining about this "country of hate" or "great satan" or whatever other name you can come up with for us. Keep claiming you've brought peace to the world just by throwing money around. But realize Iraqis wouldn't be getting this money if nothing had been done, as countries like yours proposed.

You're right, I am complaining, but I have a valid reason to be doing so. However, you're wrong saying I'm claiming I've brought peace to the world. I don't even believe it can ever happen. The money the Iraqis are getting from us is because of what was done - to provide aid to those devastated by the attacks. It's not like we're buying everyone a new Rolls-Royce.

Originally Posted by mellowboy

You're truly an idiot.

Please don't make personal attacks on any members - it's violating the terms of service you agreed to when you signed up. I can understand your frustration, but please be civil.