Acetone Fuel Additive Update

[ZL1power69]

i recently finished my first acetone cycle on my 95 jimmy. i used 6oz for my 20gal tank. i was very surprized to see a DROP in fuel economy. mpg went from 15-16 to 14. anyone else have this happen? i drove the same routes the entire time. did i do something wrong? i am going to drive without the acetone for the next tank and see if mileage improves.

[Brian R.]

Did you change gasoline brands or octane?

[ZL1power69]

Originally Posted by Brian R.

Did you change gasoline brands or octane?

no i have not. i go to the same gas station everytime and use 87 octane.
i also reset the computer each time.

[wolfox]

This would coincide with reformulated fuels that arrive in mid November. Acetone has its efects nullified when the gasoline is cut with alcohol. Alcohol and reformulated (read oxygenated fuel) that hit the market around this time of year do not see any benefit at all from acetone infusion. I put my can up on the shelf to be used in other projects for the duration of the Winter months. *sigh* When gasoline changes back to its warm weather formulation (Read: It's 100% gasoline again) you'll note an increase in fuel economy right off the bat which can be further augmented with the acetone. Also, if you are a short trip driver (under 15 miles) in Winter temperatures, you will see a dramatic drop as a cold engine has it's ECM signal longer fuel injector timings as the engine warms up, further dropping gas economy. Personally, I would like to see the monkey that mandated MTBE during the Winter hung - even the best tuned engine will see about a 3% or so drop in fuel economy because of it. :P

[ZL1power69]

Originally Posted by wolfox

This would coincide with reformulated fuels that arrive in mid November. Acetone has its efects nullified when the gasoline is cut with alcohol. Alcohol and reformulated (read oxygenated fuel) that hit the market around this time of year do not see any benefit at all from acetone infusion. I put my can up on the shelf to be used in other projects for the duration of the Winter months. *sigh* When gasoline changes back to its warm weather formulation (Read: It's 100% gasoline again) you'll note an increase in fuel economy right off the bat which can be further augmented with the acetone. Also, if you are a short trip driver (under 15 miles) in Winter temperatures, you will see a dramatic drop as a cold engine has it's ECM signal longer fuel injector timings as the engine warms up, further dropping gas economy. Personally, I would like to see the monkey that mandated MTBE during the Winter hung - even the best tuned engine will see about a 3% or so drop in fuel economy because of it. :P

thats all i needed to know. thanks alot. good advise.

[BlazerLT]

Originally Posted by ZL1power69

no i have not. i go to the same gas station everytime and use 87 octane.
i also reset the computer each time.

also the overall temperatures have dropped lately.

[ZL1power69]

Originally Posted by BlazerLT

also the overall temperatures have dropped lately.

i started my cycle when temps were still in the 60's. even then i had a slight decline in mpg. i guess as the temps fell, mpg fell even with acetone

[drdd]

Hey wolfox,

do gas companies reformulate fuels in the South?

I'm in southern Kentucky ...

Originally Posted by wolfox

This would coincide with reformulated fuels that arrive in mid November. Acetone has its efects nullified when the gasoline is cut with alcohol. Alcohol and reformulated (read oxygenated fuel) that hit the market around this time of year do not see any benefit at all from acetone infusion. I put my can up on the shelf to be used in other projects for the duration of the Winter months. *sigh* When gasoline changes back to its warm weather formulation (Read: It's 100% gasoline again) you'll note an increase in fuel economy right off the bat which can be further augmented with the acetone. Also, if you are a short trip driver (under 15 miles) in Winter temperatures, you will see a dramatic drop as a cold engine has it's ECM signal longer fuel injector timings as the engine warms up, further dropping gas economy. Personally, I would like to see the monkey that mandated MTBE during the Winter hung - even the best tuned engine will see about a 3% or so drop in fuel economy because of it. :P

[wolfox]

I cannot speak for the entire south. But my little patch of it down here believes it is being "Geen" and environmentally friendly by cutting vehicle fuels with MTBE and alcohol. Ask a reasonably sharp Californian whom has been following data on MTBE how their open water supplies are doing.

[Blazerboy1287]

Originally Posted by wolfox

I cannot speak for the entire south. But my little patch of it down here believes it is being "Geen" and environmentally friendly by cutting vehicle fuels with MTBE and alcohol. Ask a reasonably sharp Californian whom has been following data on MTBE how their open water supplies are doing.

One such Californian, notably myself, has in fact been following data on MTBE, and also on how its use has been limited or banned in several areas of the state, most notably near Lake Tahoe, because, in short, while it does reduce smog, it also seriously messes up aquatic ecosystems by finding its way into lakes, streams, and rivers. So, just like so many other EPA projects, this is one of those shortsighted initiatives that is being cancelled out, millions of taxpayer dollars later, due to the discovery that it is doing more harm than good. Unfortunately, though, the government is still going to be cutting gasoline with ethanol because they cannot find anything wrong with it yet (besides making us buy more gas).

[wolfox]

It goes deeper than that. Areas around gas stations that rely on wells to supply fresh water, and areas that are travelled heavily; again relying on ground water drawn from wells are starting to see elevated levels of MTBE. This stuff gets in *everything*. It only takes a very minute amount of it to be detected. (Humans can be sensitive to MTBE in water in concentrations as low as 20 PPB - that's right 20 Parts per BILLION - 5 PPB is not detectible and has been shown to cause significant harm to test animals over a given period of time.) And people wonder why 1 out of 2 males or 1 out of 3 females *will* contract cancer of some form during their lifetime. I am not saying THIS is the reason why, but it's shaping up to be a significant factor that should be considered.

[BlazerLT]

Let's keep this topic on track guys.

Just don't want it fading to an environmental thread.

[drdd]

Hey wolfox,

what is it about alcohol that nulifies the effects of acetone?

Originally Posted by wolfox

This would coincide with reformulated fuels that arrive in mid November. Acetone has its efects nullified when the gasoline is cut with alcohol. Alcohol and reformulated (read oxygenated fuel) that hit the market around this time of year do not see any benefit at all from acetone infusion. I put my can up on the shelf to be used in other projects for the duration of the Winter months. *sigh* When gasoline changes back to its warm weather formulation (Read: It's 100% gasoline again) you'll note an increase in fuel economy right off the bat which can be further augmented with the acetone. Also, if you are a short trip driver (under 15 miles) in Winter temperatures, you will see a dramatic drop as a cold engine has it's ECM signal longer fuel injector timings as the engine warms up, further dropping gas economy. Personally, I would like to see the monkey that mandated MTBE during the Winter hung - even the best tuned engine will see about a 3% or so drop in fuel economy because of it. :P

[Brian R.]

I doubt anyone knows. Alcohol does react chemcally with acetone under some conditions (forming an acetal). Also, alcohol and water combine with acetone chemically in a similar way as above forming a hemiacetal (and there is always some water present).

Also, alcohol (and water) binds dynamically and reversibly with acetone through hydrogen bonding, which is what you will probably find in gasoline solution under conditions that don't permit chemical reaction. Alcohol (and to an even greater extent, water) likes acetone much more than it likes hydrocarbons.

All the above possibilities will radically change the physical properties of acetone in gasoline. Only the first chemical reactions will change the chemical properties of acetone.

So, if the effect of acetone is a physical effect, as is proposed (changing the surface tension all by itself - which I find hard to believe without some data, since the surface tension of acetone is very similar to that of gasoline), then either process will potentially cause a problem. Also, alcohol alone will change the physical properties of gasoline which may nullify any effect the acetone will have. Alcohol will have a much stronger effect on gasoline (perhaps in the wrong direction) than acetone will. Acetone is much more like gasoline in physical properties than is alcohol.

The more I think about it, the more I think that the effect of acetone on gasoline may be a result of the affinity acetone has for water. Water may have a really large effect on the physical properties (surface tension) of gasoline in very small quantities. Perhaps the acetone attracts the water and deletes the effect the small amount of water has on the gas. This would also be significantly more effective in some vehicles than others. :shrug:

Water has such a high surface tension that this could be a possible explanation for all this. The presence of alcohol may have a similar effect as water, and be in such large quantities in gas that the acetone used by you is in much too small a concentration to attract all the alcohol - as well as the alcohol having a higher affinity for gas than does water.

[wolfox]

Originally Posted by drdd

Hey wolfox,

what is it about alcohol that nulifies the effects of acetone?

Acetone achieves what it does (A marginal 3-10% increase in fuel economy) by "exciting" gasoline. It makes its molecules more apt to just literally break apart into discrete molecules of vapor to allow further, cleaner and more productive combustion. It does this by lowering the surface tension of gasoline. Acetone only has to be present in *minute* quantities for this to happen.

Alcohol *increases* the surface tension of gasoline like fuels. This makes it not so freely capable of burning as efficiently. Alcohols are present in gasoline formulations in winter in amounts of 10% or more. The very scant 2-3 Oz. acetone to every 10 gallons of gasoline at this time will not be enough to counter-act the effect of these higher concentrations of alcohols. (Ethanol Alcohol to be specific)

If I see "x% Ethanol By Volume" on a gasp pump label - I go to the next gas station, looking for someone that sells what's advertised on the side of the pump.... Gasoline.

Oh, and to the folks that still think Acetone is harmful, read up a little more on the subject. 1) It's molecularly closer to gasoline than any other fuel "additive". 2) It "catalyzes" fuel into an ideal fuel medium, similar to propane's behavior and how it would burn if it were running in our engines. (Propane is already a vapor when introduced in a combustion chamber. Low surface tension Gasoline will vaporize, rather than be atomized when a small amount of it's constituency is mixed with acetone) 3) It does not impinge on gasoline's lubricity. 4) *Alcohol* does *more* harm that acetone in our fuel systems and engines than anything else.

Alcohol reduces fuel economy and burning efficiency, is hydroscopic (Attracts water) in nature, and is *acidic* on fuel lines, both rubber and metallic and loves to eat the materials seals are made of in various fuel injection systems. Just ask the folks in South America how their highly concentrated alcohol volume in fuel is working for them - and what their local government is doing to try to raise alcohol in the total content of fuel. Then ask the *millions* of people that have no choice as to what fuel they can purchase how their cars are doing. *Millions* of broken, choked up, corroded and eaten from the inside-out vehicles are littering the place.