has spark wont start

[tblake]

I think we should go back to the basics on this one. What are you missing at your injector pulse? Power or ground? Keep in mind the PCM controls the ground side of each injector individually. All of them share the power side which is I believe a pink wire if my memory serves me correctly. Said common (pink?) wire should show battery voltage anytime the key is in the on position.

As said by Tech II a faulty cam sensor or harness in theory shouldn't keep your car from starting because the PCM will just keep "guessing" where the cam is while you crank it, and eventually, maybe after a hickup or puff out the intake, your car should start and stay running once the correct cam positon is "guessed". At any quessed position, your PCM will still command the fuel injectors to fire. Although, it may not be a bad idea to inspect the cam sensor and wiring (I know its near a waterpump pulley) for rubbed through areas, and if the sensor came from anywhere but the dealer, may not be a bad idea to request a replacement.

Which leads us to the crank position sensor. I have, in my experience, never seen it where a faulty crank position keeps the fuel injectors from firing. It always kills spark to my knowledge, although, this is a dual sided permenant magnet type sensor, and I suppose it is possible that one side failed which the PCM uses for fuel injector firing pattern. Anythings possible.

At any rate, both sides of the Crank Position sensor and the Cam position sensor circuit can be checked at the ignition module connector. I forgot which wire colors. I will have to see if I can find a wiring diagram. You can verify circuit integrity by measuring resistance, but the best way is probably to measure voltage output on a scope of each circuit while the engine is being cranked. Although, most "shade tree mechanics" dont have access to said scope, so a regular voltmeter should be adequate.

PS, any codes return after the CMP sensor replacement?

[olopezm]

Originally Posted by tblake

I think we should go back to the basics on this one. What are you missing at your injector pulse? Power or ground? Keep in mind the PCM controls the ground side of each injector individually. All of them share the power side which is I believe a pink wire if my memory serves me correctly. Said common (pink?) wire should show battery voltage anytime the key is in the on position.

That's why I suggested to check for 12 volts between ground and each one of the terminals at the injector plugs.

Originally Posted by tblake

Which leads us to the crank position sensor. I have, in my experience, never seen it where a faulty crank position keeps the fuel injectors from firing. It always kills spark to my knowledge, although, this is a dual sided permenant magnet type sensor, and I suppose it is possible that one side failed which the PCM uses for fuel injector firing pattern. Anythings possible.

I've copied this from the manual, I hope it helps. You're right Tim, CMP won't keep them from firing, I was wrong. CKP will control both coils and injectors via the ICM.

Camshaft Position Sensor

The Camshaft Position (CMP) sensor signal is a digital ON/OFF pulse, output once per revolution of the camshaft. The CMP sensor does not directly affect the operation of the ignition system. The CMP sensor information is used by the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) to determine the position of the valve train relative to the CKP. By monitoring the CMP and CKP signals the PCM can accurately time the operation of the fuel injectors. The CMP sensor shares 12-volt and low reference circuits with the CKP sensor. The CMP signal circuit is input to the ICM. CMP sensor is located in the engine block below the water pump, above the crankshaft pulley.

Crankshaft Sensor

The Crankshaft Position (CKP) sensor is located behind the crankshaft pulley and is connected directly to the Ignition Control (IC) module.

The 12-volt reference circuit. The low reference circuit. The CKP sensor 1 signal circuit. The CKP sensor 2 signal circuit.

The Crankshaft Position (CKP) sensor has a 4-wire harness connector that plugs into the CKP sensor and connects to the Ignition Control Module (ICM). The CKP sensor contains 2 hall-effect switches in 1 housing, and shares a magnet between the switches. The magnet and each hall-effect switch are separated by an air gap. A hall-effect switch is a solid state switching device that produces a digital ON/OFF pulse when a rotating element passes the sensor pick-up and interrupts the magnetic field of the sensor. The rotating element is called an interrupter ring or blade. There are two interrupter rings built into the crankshaft balancer. The outer ring and the outer switch provide the ICM with 18X signals or 18 identical pulses per crankshaft revolution. The inner ring and the inner switch provide the ICM with 3 pulses per revolution, each one of different duration. This is called the sync pulse. Each sync pulse represents a pair of companion cylinders. The ICM supplies a 12-volt and a low reference circuit to the CKP sensor, which is also shared by the Camshaft Position (CMP) sensor. The 18X reference pulses are passed from the CKP sensor to the ICM on the CKP sensor 1 signal circuit. The sync pulses are passed from the CKP sensor to the ICM on the CKP sensor 2 signal circuit. The ICM uses the 18X and sync pulses to determine the crankshaft position by counting how many ON-OFF 18X pulses occur during a sync pulse. With this dual interrupter ring arrangement the ICM can identify the correct pair of cylinders to fire within as little as 120 degrees of crankshaft rotation.

Oscar.

[tblake]

Oscar's got it covered, from here shouldn't be too difficult to narrow it down.

[craig0407]

Just an evap code is on, I replaced the cam and crank sensor anyways today. Still not starting. The injectors all have 11.9. Volts to them. I'm wondering if the icm or a PCM driver is the culprit. And the security isnt an issue, the light stops flashing as soon as I put the key in the ignition. I think I'm at a loss at this point as where to go now without just throwing parts at it :/ I'll take the harness out and dig into it again. But it looked good when I inspected it the other day, the plastic casing is still sealed shut and there's no evidence of anything possibly rubbing

[craig0407]

today i pulled the harness that runs from cam/crank sensors to icm and fuel. i took all the tape etc off and looked for broken wires, also tested them with meter. while i had the icm and coil block off i sanded the spot where the ground goes, re-assembled it all and car fired right up. its been firing right up all day. i think i just had a crappy ground connection.

[olopezm]

Hopefully that was the problem. Good work!

Oscar.

[tblake]

I would run it and tug on that harness to see if it hiccups. I've seen those harnesses go bad.