Attempts stall, Idle Pulses 600-800 rpms, horrible MPG

[wiswind]

This is why I try to have ONLY 1 wire disconnected at a time.......greatly reduces the chance for me to grab the wrong loose end.
That is a lesson that I learned very early on......and has stayed with me.
Of course, this is not always possible.....but I certainly do look for a way to do this.
Otherwise......I tape and label the wire ends.
Of course....this is starting with a situation where things are connected in the correct place to start with.

[Freakzilla69]

I'm very interested to see what a new wiring harness does. My van does funny things at idle and I have a replaced parts list similar to this one, too. Plus perpetual 171/174. I wonder if I don't have similar electrical problems.

[searcherrr]

Ooopss.


Selectron's nice graphic to supplement my lil self-drawn diagram above:


I had drawn out my diagram above for another thread I did (Bad Coil Pack symptoms) and not recalled that 5 and 6 have weird positioning.... weird to me. It is ME who made a mistake on 5&6. I thought since 1,2,3,& 4 are in the position they are in that the last 2 positions would be "middle 5" and "last 6", but clearly 6 is in the middle on the non-connector/harness side and clearly 5 is the last terminal on the non-connector/harness side.

Its simply easy to mistake this and I goofed. I even labeled it wrong in the engine bay despite my diagram being correct, and I will have to fix that when I get home. Lucky for me I have great help on here and ya'll noticed it before I tried to start the van. I would've been some f'in pissed.

I have 2 new coil packs (1 performance and 1 OEM; perf. one on vehicle). The OEM pack has the numbering on it with a sticker. I will confirm on that pack too when I get home later this week, but I believe the diagrams are accurate and that Selectron found my boo boo.

Drive a diesel huh. lol

12Ounce - EDUcation indeed sir. INDEED. $$$$$$$ and lots n lots n lots of TIME. I do like knowing all that I know now though. I really do, because it just is good to know what I'm dealing with whenever I bring it in somewhere if anything else.

Wiswind - I guess in all this highly technical stuff I thought like Selectron mentioned (going clockwise around the coils) that 5 & 6 would be in order even despite the diagrams. I guess I was mirroring what I saw to draw that diagram, but wasn't registering that in my engine bay I had it backwards.... which means that my shop DIDN'T mess up the spark wiring after all.

Freakzilla69 - I'd seriously doubt this problem I had would be on other Winnies unless someone had pulled the engine and rerouted the PCM wiring harness OVER the EGR pipe and between the rear (right) valve cover of the engine like on mine. This key mishap is what caused my wiring to melt. If I were you I'd scout all your wiring and make sure its not touching anything hot or rubbing on anything that moves.

I'm about to post the wiring numbers so ya'll can see what I believe will be resolving this problem FINALLY!!!!

[searcherrr]

The following is a list of the wires that were melted together and sitting right next to each other exposed in various places with current likely arcing across each other's wires.

Color Legend:
DG = Dark Green
LG = Light Green
GN = Green
BL = Blue
DB = Dark Blue
BK = Black
Y = Yellow
P = Purple
R = Red
W = White
O = Orange

1st Color = Main Color/2nd Color = Stripe

DG/Y - pin 40 circuit 238 - Fuel pump monitor input

BK - pin 25 circuit 57 - Case Ground

LG/P - pin 17 circuit 639 - High Fan Control
....Or it could've been P/LG, but I think it was LG/P; P/LG is pin 61 circuit 393 for HO2S #2 Input - heated oxygen sensor 2 input)

R/W - pin 93 circuit 387 - HO2S #3 Output - heated oxygen sensor 3 output
Although, i recall this going to what looks like the temperature switch on the block

O/LG - pin 43 circuit 71 - Fuel Flow Output (digital cluster only)
Not sure what this means for me since I have the analog cluster, because this wire does exist and I explicitly wrote "ORANGE with GREEN STRIPE" on my lil notebook.
**There is a LG/O which is pin 99 circuit 560 for Fuel injector #6, but I'm sure it was Orange over with green stripe.

BL or DB - Just blue wire. Matches are a DB on Pin 6 circuit 349 of the Ignition Control Module for the Crankshaft Position Sensor (+) and what makes more sense due to my problem that started this thread: DB pin 14 circuit 228 Low Speed Fan Input from PCM. THIS COULD VERY LIKELY BE THE BIGGEST AAAAAHHHHH HAAAAAAAAA !!!!! OF THE THREAD!!! ATTEMPTS STALL WHEN FANS CUT OFF!!!!! Also, circuit 228 passes through connector C100 (the big one in front of the brake booster which goes to the melted spot on my PCM harness).

*If ya'll are wondering, I brought my notebook with me to be able to post this thread later on during my visit to my lady friend. I'll probably be home to finish up the van later this week. For now though I figure those wires are something to ponder. I think it says a lot about what was going on, if not everything.

G'night - it beez 5:15 AM CDT

[searcherrr]

Hello Sports Fans!!! I'm baaaaackkkkkk! .. like Randy Quaid in Independence Day!!

If anyone is still watching - There is this thread I just created:
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...08#post5976208

Well, I had no desire or energy to put the van back together a couple months ago. I ended up staying longer at my lady friend's house (a month) and left the van cocked up on one side in the driveway with everything taped over until I could get to it.

The past 4 days I put everything back together meticulously taking care to follow torque specs and methodical instructions in the shop manual. Tonight around 9pm CST (or is it CDT now?) I took my sister and mother outside to say a blessing over the hood of the van before I tried to start it up. Excited 10%, and 90% knowing to expect a problem resulting in a feeling of indifference, instead of the old forgotten used to be reaction of disappointment,

.....I had my sister turn the key to light up the dash so I could listen for injectors spewing gas before engine start. This time I didn't hear it. So far so good.

At least the dash lights up as it should since replacement of fuse S, which blew after handling the melted wiring harness - pre-repair.

Started. No good.

Fuel spewing out of front exhaust pipe where 3 outlet manifold meets front down pipe. Same condition as it was before we (The owner from the shop and I) fixed the melted wiring harness. Engine shaking the whole van pretty harshly.

New alternator, new battery, new injectors, repaired wiring and those who remember .... an array of other new parts not to mention engine and tranny too..... still no fix.

What was odd though was before I'd heard (1,2,3) injectors squirting furiously just at Key On Engine Off before the PCM wiring harness was repaired, so I would've thought my problem would've been back there. For all I know though there is gas spewing out of the rear exhaust too and I don't realize it.

Thoughts:
1. What are some things that would cause gas to spew down the exhaust pipe unburned?

2. The fact that I have gas spewing out of a joint between the exhaust manifold and the downpipe - could this mean that the entire exhaust pipe is "FULL" with gas up to the top of the joint? Cause I don't see how else gas would spew out of this joint with pressure going OUTWARD. Would seem to indicate backpressure buildup, but I have new cats and new exhaust pipes..... ????????? what da hell?

3. Is it possible that with the electrical problems at the harness, a bad alt and a bad battery ALL AT THE SAME TIME that a spark plug on the front bank (4,5,6) blew out?

4. Could my "performance" ignition coils be causing too much spark for the stock plugs to handle? Could that in-the-middle-of-repair-upgrade have blown out a plug?

5. Due to all the electrical issues, could the new PCM be blown out with me getting no indication of it on the dash?

6. Finally, I commend anyone who is still following this thread, and again thank you further for your time and help. Any new ideas you have are appreciated. I hope someone can help me find a new direction for tomorrow because all I have left are guesses about a blown plug(s) or a blown computer and gas shooting out the front of the engine.

[12Ounce]

You've got to find precisely where the "gasoline" is squirting out ... more than just "out of the front of the engine". Maybe you could position a large mirrow, or other glass surface, as a target for the expulsion. Stuff shop towels around??

Be careful!

[wiswind]

OK.....I put a post in your new thread about what can cause gasoline to show up in the exhaust......

What I would do......is get your hands on a timing light (while you may not have seen those 2 words together in some years.....I'll bet that (like me) you are old enough to know what one is).

Once you locate a timing light. Disable the fuel pump......no fuel pressure.
Then.....one cylinder at a time......clamp the timing light pick up onto each spark plug wire......and have someone crank the engine, like they are trying to start it.
You are looking for the timing light to flash.....indicating a spark.
No flash......no spark.
The timing light pickup is activated by current (not voltage) through the spark plug wire.
Take your time and check all 6 cylinders.

If you have 1 or more cylinders without a spark.....correct that problem before moving on.

You might consider putting in a OEM style coil pack.
I don't think that a "performance" coil pack would be the cause of this problem....however, I have seen some things listed in catalogs that do not match up with our windstars......so the concern would be if the coil pack is wired correctly for the windstar.......

I cannot see why you would have fuel spraying out at the exhaust manifold / exhaust pipe junction......
The only thing that comes to mind is some obstruction.
On your new catalytic converters......I really hesitate to say it.......if I were standing there in person.....I would have a quick escape route planned out before I said it.
But......it does need to the considered.
Raw fuel into a catalytic converter causes it to get very hot (as you had happen before with your "red hot" situation a number of pages back).
So.....now that I have said it.....I would eliminate a obstructed exhaust situation before moving from the spark issue to adding more fuel.

YES....it is possible....but not certain, that you have fuel coming out of the rear exhaust manifold / tail pipe junction.
DO NOT get under the vehicle while it is running to try to determine this......as I don't want you to get fuel in your face (and end up getting burned, should it ignite).
Each exhaust manifold has its own catalytic converter.......and they merge after the converter....
I am sure that you know this by now, having been under there as much as you have.
But.....it is possible that 1 bank is OK, while the other bank is not.......or that both banks are blocked.
What you DO know for sure is that you have the fuel issue on the front bank of cylinders......it is the rear bank that you don't know about.

One might be able to probe the pins on the fuel injector electrical plugs.
When connected to the injector, ignition ON, but motor NOT running, you should measure the +12V to ground at BOTH wires.
1 wire stays at +12V, the other wire goes to the PCM......and the PCM MOMENTARILY grounds (around 0V) that wire to cause the injector to spray.
You will not "see" this on a meter because the sample time of the meter is much slower than the ground (0V) pulse.
So.....if you see a low value......you have a problem.
At this point, you can see where a pinched wire harness for the fuel injectors can cause a injector to stay "ON" and spray fuel constantly.

Now.....once you know that you have spark at all plugs.....no exhaust obstruction......and no low pin at any of the fuel injectors with the ingnition ON, motor OFF.....you are ready to proceed from there.

If you think only 1 injector is spraying too much....and you do not find a low line to any injector....you can unplug the injectors 1 at a time.....to see if that will narrow down the leaker.

Needless to say......if you have fuel spewing out the exhaust......you likely have fuel leaking past the rings and down into the crankcase........so you are looking at needing to change the motor oil.
I am just not getting past the pressure at a level to have you see fuel come out at that point......some pressure is normal.....but that much raw fuel?

[searcherrr]

Originally Posted by 12Ounce

You've got to find precisely where the "gasoline" is squirting out ... more than just "out of the front of the engine". Maybe you could position a large mirrow, or other glass surface, as a target for the expulsion. Stuff shop towels around??

Be careful!

I know exactly where its coming from. Its where my Maganflow Ypipe meets the front exhaust manifold. This is the nightmare Ypipe that won't go away. If I'm seeing gas out this area this also means there is an exhaust leak there too I would think. I can't see how it would matter though, cause the flow of exhaust (when not spitting fuel) flows down and outward and the flared/tapered metal joint where the Ypipe and manifold meet doesn't seem like it would allow much exhaust to get out. I definitely don't "hear" a difference with this tiny opening either.

[searcherrr]

I'm not getting a CEL. Would this mean the PCM is busted?

I pulled spark plug #6 today and it was wet with fuel and black and it's only 10k miles old, but was also in my old engine. I am hoping the old injectors being faulty and wiring shorted issues that were resolved have fixed this condition and that new plugs will resolve my issues. The plug wires were replaced with the plugs 10k miles ago. I wonder if they went bad too. Ugg.

From what I've read a totally black plug is carbon deposits and carbon conducts electricity very well, thus distorting and spreading out the electric charge the plug is supposed to emit in the gap... instead the charge follows the black carbon and I guess amounts to no spark.

I might have a timing light somewhere. I've always heard of it yeah, but never actually knew how using one helped me. lol - I may try the timing light procedure after I replace the plugs. I had already bought a set a few months ago in case I needed them. Putting OEM Motorcraft Platinums back in. I hate gapping plugs. I've been waiting years for good gapping tools to come out and I finally see Accel has released a set of gapping pliers.

Since plug #6 was bad I bet all or most of the others are too from the previous messed up engine condition where the injectors seemingly were squirting erratically and/or full time due to crossed/shorted PCM wires.

You got me scared on an exhaust blockage. I still have that back pressure tester, maybe I can hook that up (if I think I need to after resolving the plugs issue) and see if there is excessive back pressure buildup. 1st guy I was trying to save money with did all kinds of shitty welds, though I doubt he did one large enough that would block enough exhaust air to cause a restriction.

Keep in mind, I have not driven the van anywhere since it started doing the gas spitting. It has just happened in the first 30 - 60 seconds of idling in the driveway. If I can't resolve this with the new plugs, then I think I've made up my mind to deliver it via tow truck to the shop that messed it up to begin with.

If the new plugs don't resolve this issue, I will probably put in OEM coil pack if the shop can't resolve the problem.

Wiswind - Thanks a great deal. I am going to mesh your instructions with what I know now since I've found #6 plug fouled and proceed with testing after I replace all the plugs.

GAS AND OIL MIXED - I HOPE YOU CAN GUIDE ME HERE. I just changed the oil yesterday after I got it all assembled, because I knew this was happening from I think you and another Ford tech telling me this (The shop told me that as well), that gas going into exhaust means gas into crankcase oil.

I only ran the engine for maybe 20 - 30 seconds SINCE THE OIL WAS CHANGED yesterday. Prior to that, the engine sat not running for over 2 months with the old oil. I think I could smell the gas in the old oil.

1. Anyway, my question is since I've only run it once 20 - 30 seconds 1 TIME since the new oil was put in do I yet again have to change the oil or will it be ok?

2. Are my brand new rings on this new engine now bad? They've run probably 2500 miles with the old faulty injectors fouling the plugs.

[wiswind]

I would not think that your rings are bad.....I just mentioned that raw fuel sitting in the cylinders will leak down past the rings into the crankcase.

I do not know how to check for exhaust back pressure, or know what the specifications are. Fuel leaking out around the joint.....just is not normal...I would expect it to drip on down. You pretty much have my head spinning on this one.

You are smart to not let the motor run when fuel is leaking out that spot......however it limits the troubleshooting process.
I want to tell you to unplug the fuel injectors on at a time to see if unplugging 1 will change things.....but that has the motor running FAR too long.
HOWEVER.......I think that removing each spark plug.....1 at a time and inspecting them.....maybe 1 or 2 are wet and the others are not?.......which would narrow things down a bit.

[searcherrr]

Thanks for info about the rings. Think the freshly changed oil is ok since that 1 short idle?

Yeah, I'm gonna go plug by plug and label them and take pictures of'em so ya'll can see too. If the problem still exists after the new plugs then I'll try all the other stuff you mentioned.

Exhaust backpressure testing is as simple as vacuum pressure testing except its done using a hole on the exhaust somewhere. I have one that mounts into the Oxygen sensor holes that I can put on any of the 4 to see if there are pre or post cat pressure build up issues. There is a colored green/red range on the backpressure meter. Basically there should be little to no back pressure on fuel injected engines... less than 1 psi.

Just for safety's sake I think tomorrow I will remove the front O2 sensor just to check if the pipe is full of fuel. I'll stick my finger in there and fish around and see if its wet.

Gapping spark plugs - I absolutely HATE doing this. I'm meticulous and I cannot relax unless each plug is gapped exactly right and the same on each. With no good tool to do this without damaging the center electrode I built something out of a piece of 2x4, a wide head nail, a piece of deck strong-tie flat metal and 3 screws. I used a knife to dig a small indention into the 2x4 piece and hammered the nail into it at that spot. Then I screwed the deck plate into the 2x4 with half the head of the nail exposed. Now I have a flat plate to hook onto the ground electrode and can slide it under the plate and tilt the spark plug backwards to bend it backwards without touching the center electrode. Then to close the gap, the lil taps on a table or piece of wood. Came out pretty good, but I'd much rather have a set of gapping pliers that I finally see someone (Accel) came out with.

[wiswind]

Don't get too carried away with the gapping of the plugs.....the Platinum enhancement could be damaged by too much contact with hard tooling.
You can usually see it.

As far as oil.....hard to say how much fuel might be in it.
You could try the "sniff" test......
Once you get the motor running smoothly, I would change the oil again.....as you can pretty much count on some fuel with the amount you mention seeing at the exhaust.

As far as the CEL, maybe you did not have the motor running long enough to set a CEL.....although I would not try to run the motor very long when it is not running correctly.....and codes may not be of much help........the problem being......was the code caused by the problem or causing the problem?......you don't need a code to tell you that you have a misfire.........you don't need a code to tell you that your exhaust is too rich (fuel coming out is about as rich as it gets).....

It would be good to eliminate excessive back pressure from the list....as well as see if you have 1 super wet/fowled spark plug......
If you can narrow down to 1 cylinder......unplug that fuel injector's electrical connector......

Another thing to try before starting the motor........turn the key to the "ON" position....but don't start the motor...
This will pump the fuel system up to pressure.
Then turn the Key "OFF".....and see if the fuel system holds pressure.
If the pressure dies down quickly (like in 30 seconds to a minute), you could have a fuel injector spraying, or leaking fuel.
If the fuel pressure drops quickly.....you could try unplugging the fuel injector harness....and see if the problem still happens (which would eliminate a physical problem vs a electrical).
If unplugging the harness clears the problem....you can reconnect it and try each injector.....to get down to the injector that is staying ON......and then correct the problem from there.

[searcherrr]

Today's News:
I started late today (like an hour ago) and cleaned #6 and #5 plug bores before I put the new plugs in. Both are gapped wrong and way too low from the factory spec and neither gap matches either. DOUBLE WRONG.

Those plugs I've removed (taking a while cause of cleaning the oil/fuel mix out of the plug bores first) are both not set to the right gap at all. In fact they are like .046 on #6 and #5 is .039. #6 was filthy wet with fuel and oil. #5 was wet with fuel, but not as much as #6 and thats probably because #5 was removed by me previously and I cleaned it up hoping that would do the trick. Still, .039 gap when you are supposed to be in a range of .052 - .056 to me is waaaay off and not enough spark to burn all the fuel properly..... hence another reason that expedited fouling my plugs.

I just hope that I haven't ruined the plug wires SOMEHOW???? I guess if the new plugs do not fix anything I'll have to make sure the NEW plug wires weren't ruined too when the electrical gremlins were still present (hoping that I did get all those gremlins too). Your instructions for the timing light would tell me this answer.

I pulled the O2 sensor in the front too, and found it had fuel still moist on it and it was a tiny bit oily too like the plugs were. I hope some seals aren't ruined now letting too much oil into the plug chambers???? Comments on that??

I may go back out in a bit and finish the 3rd plug (plug #4) before the sun goes down and do the rear bank tomorrow since I don't wanna be eaten alive by mosquitoes and other insects while I'm inserting my body into the engine bay. I think I can reach the rear plugs just by removing the air pipe and nothing else. Looks easier than I had previously thought except for the pain of laying on top the engine.


Reply to post:
Are you saying gapping the plugs isn't important?

I had thought gapping the plugs to the right gap spacing was important on all plugs except Iridium's, but even then I don't see why you wouldn't gap them if you can do it without touching the center electrode.

If you were just talking about being careful while gapping, I haven't touched the center electrode at all except to check the size. While gapping, I have devised a tool/method to not touch the center electrode.

How long after the motor is running right ya think I should change the oil? After 1 tank of gas? I ask cause I was thinking about getting ALL the fuel out before I waste money on more oil. Is there an additive that helps to get rid of fuel in the oil that wouldn't gum up my new engine?

Good point on the CEL. I thought about that. I bet it wouldn't kick the code till the vehicle reaches full operating temp.

I don't plan on starting it again until all the plugs are removed, inspected and new ones installed.

I would have to get very clever about unplugging the injectors because I really don't see how I could reach the connectors to unplug them with the whole intake put back on. I have a long spring grabber tool though for things that fall down during repairs...... maybe I can weasel that thing in there and open the clips up with a small pick at the same time. Only problem with that is that 3 of the injector connector's clips are broken and I secured them with security ties before putting the intake back on. I'd have to weasel a clipper in there first to get those off to do this test and then I'd have no way of redoing the security ties unless I'd take off the intake again.

I continuity/resistance tested the injector harness separately with no power to it and it checked out fine. I now remember though that I only got as far as injector #2 and #3 before Fuse S blew out prior to the PCM wiring repairs. It was that testing and manipulation of the wiring that caused the fuse to blow mid-test. So I know the injector harness is good, but I don't know if the PCM is grounding it right or if its LIVE all the time on that live 12v ground wire.

Keep in mind, my injectors are brand new so they should be operating just fine barring irregular PCM signals (grounding on/off).

Thanks Carl.

[wiswind]

YES, correct spark plug gap is important.......I was just cautioning to be careful as the platinum enhancement can be damaged if one jams a tool against it.
Most likely, the 0.039 gap would still "work"....maybe more prone to "fowling", but not right away.
I DO check/adjust the gap on spark plugs before I install them.
The correct spark plugs are rated at 100K miles.

Spark plug wires do not take well to being handled.......take the time to grasp the boot...and twist the boot on the spark plug before pulling......to prevent damage.
Easy to forget when one is frustrated / in a hurry.

I am leery of "performance" spark plug wires after a friend put a set of Taylor "performance" wires on his Sunbird.....rough idle (missing) showed up right away.
As he had done a complete tune-up.....he did not know what the problem was.....and over the next 6 months was trying all kinds of things......
Then one night, he tried my trick of lifting the hood in the dark, with the motor at idle.
He said it looked like a city around the spark plug wires.
New wires.....problem solved.
Needless to say, while he was happy to have solved the problem, he was very unhappy to have had it caused by a "premium" part that he had paid extra for.

As far as the injectors being new.....I am hoping that you have the correct ones for the vehicle.....they MUST have the correct flow rate. Too much or too little is no good.
They are rated by flow rate (how much fuel flows when they are "open").
The PCM is calibrated to expect a given fuel flow rate when the injector is spraying.
I am pretty sure that you got the correct ones....but I have seen some strange claims on the internet....

[searcherrr]

Yeah, I got the right ones. I actually had to send back the ones I got at first because they were the wrong part number (wrong flow rate) and were for all the later year Windstars with more HP. Swapped'em out and got the right part number. Too bad too that I had rushed shipping on the 1st order and was sent the wrong injectors, but the guy refunded shipping for me on his own..... which was nice.

I just think the old rich condition (which I hope is old now) with the bad wiring, bad alt, bad battery = irregular unreliable voltage throughout the van messed up the spark plugs because of irregular injector firing over 10k miles from the old engine to the new one.

I take great care before removing the plug wires. I always grab the boot and pull directly straight outward, while not putting tension on the wire itself. Lots of practice while working with other electronics (always grab the connector) has me that way. Good advice to state in any case.

I'm removing AUTOLITE Part # AP5145 {PLUGS Platinum} plugs and installing the OEM MOTORCRAFT Part # SP482's {#AGSF44FMF6} which are platinum as well. I'm hoping to see this thing perform better than I've ever seen it when I'm done.

Good thing there is no monetary cost on Hope.