EVO magazine edition 133 - 16R

[guyturner]

The latest edition of EVO magazine has a piece on 16R and includes the information that it is currently up for sale at £1.6m, this apparently is a reduction of £400,000 on the original asking price when it first went up for sale a number of months ago.

[Peloton25]

Wow - that's a tremendous price for a converted GTR. I'm really quite surprised to hear that.

>8^)
ER

[hurstg01]

£400k drop - ouch. Was priced too high first off anyway.

I still wanna go and have a look at this one someday....

[GTR LVR]

It has always surprised me that GTRs with history are perceived to be worth less than standard road cars, or a LM. In almost every case in the collector car universe, whenever a manufacturer produced both a road car and racing version based off of the production model, the race car ends up being the more valuable of the two (think Jaguar D-type, Ferrari 250 SWB, Cal Spyder, etc.). The fact is that a 1995/6 GTR were either winners, or capable of winning LeMans when new, can and have on several occasions been legally converted for road use, and have unique race histories (sometimes with F1 and/or sportscar world champions at the wheel). Yes, a road car is a different animal, and tame by comparison, which is not all bad. But 64 were produced against eighteen 1995/6 GTRs (only sixteen raced). Six LMs were built (incl. the prototype), but keep in mind, these were built as commemorative editions for each of the five GTRs that finished the 1995 LeMans 24 Hour race! When have you heard of a commemorative edition being worth more that the original? And as for performance, an unrestricted GTR is best of all. In short, it's well documented that good road cars command upwards of £2M (or more), so I find it interesting that most still accept that GTRs should trade below their road car counterpart. To my point, I know someone who owns both a GTR and road car, and although the market is the market, he places a substantial premium on the GTR over the road car (and both are good ones).

Originally Posted by Peloton25

Wow - that's a tremendous price for a converted GTR. I'm really quite surprised to hear that.

>8^)
ER

[hurstg01]

It's refreshing to hear that view of your friend, as an owner I have conversed with says the polar opposite -
[with regards to pricings] "GTRs (apart from 01-R) would be somewhat below standard road cars".

I was surprised to hear that from this owner, as I too thought that the rarer the car, the more valuable it is. Hopefully I'll hear from him again soon if he reads this so the discussion can continue.

Originally Posted by GTR LVR

When have you heard of a commemorative edition being worth more than the original?

I'd like to revisit this comment later next week when I have some more info

[carbuilder2002]

I can confirm the bizzare state of the market regarding GTR's, as when I was chasing 11R I was told by all of the leading experts that as a rule of thumb a GTR is generally held to be valued at between 75% and 85% of a road car.
16R would have been in my sights had the ecomomic climate not scuppered any plans on offloading my business but I live in hope of a lottery win.

[hurstg01]

Originally Posted by carbuilder2002

...I live in hope of a lottery win.

As do we all

[dbsf1]

Originally Posted by hurstg01

As do we all

30,000,000 NZD plus 1.7mil in prizes (USD20.5mil) about to be drawn here in NZ. (It's the biggest one we've had yet) Drawn on wednesday - it's a must win! It can't jackpot higher someone has to win it! Here's hoping! I know where my first 1.5mil or so would be going

[Sami Aaltonen]

Very interesting comments from all. (If I understood specialitely GTR LVR's comment right) I agree with this one, do not understand the lower prices of the GTR's. GTR is one of the rarest things what could have. But maybe this has something to do with the GTR's roughnes if it can be say like this.

The road car is much more comfortable (I think) and it has quite many luxury things added which are missing from GTR's. So a person who want's a GTR, knows precisely what he wants and probaly is very specialised about GTR's. The markets are lower, the demand is lower.

When someone, who wants a perfect road car and have not problems to pay for it and wants to use everyday everywhere, and comes even cheaper to own, and even can take two friends onboard; chooses the standard F1 roadcar. And this could be the reason, that in the end; the roadcar versions are more expensive....
Am I totally wrong road now...?

[dbsf1]

Originally Posted by Sami Aaltonen

Very interesting comments from all. (If I understood specialitely GTR LVR's comment right) I agree with this one, do not understand the lower prices of the GTR's. GTR is one of the rarest things what could have. But maybe this has something to do with the GTR's roughnes if it can be say like this.

The road car is much more comfortable (I think) and it has quite many luxury things added which are missing from GTR's. So a person who want's a GTR, knows precisely what he wants and probaly is very specialised about GTR's. The markets are lower, the demand is lower.

When someone, who wants a perfect road car and have not problems to pay for it and wants to use everyday everywhere, and comes even cheaper to own, and even can take two friends onboard; chooses the standard F1 roadcar. And this could be the reason, that in the end; the roadcar versions are more expensive....
Am I totally wrong road now...?

Well, you've pretty much summed it up as far as I can tell!
nice work

[hurstg01]

Originally Posted by Sami Aaltonen

...do not understand the lower prices of the GTR's. GTR is one of the rarest things what could have.

I've had a nice email from the owner of the F1 I alluded to earlier. In the email he states that, yes, GTR's are more scarce than normal road cars, but there are fewer GT's than LM's, and he doesn't think there is a lengthy queue of people looking to buy one of the "three ungainly Long-tails." Rarity, in itself, is not decisive, which is a valid point.

Originally Posted by GTR LVR

..it's well documented that good road cars command upwards of £2M (or more), so I find it interesting that most still accept that GTR's should trade below their road car counterpart.

He states that only one standard road car has ever sold at or above that level, and the price included the auction premium (plus VAT). The car was unique [in as such that it was the ex-Park lane showroom car and had very few miles on it] and the price was achieved after an elaborate marketing campaign which included, purposefully or not, a major underestimate of the selling price which had the effect of hyping the interest. He believes that a realistic price for a typical road car these days would be roughly £1.5M.

He continued by saying there are very few racing cars that trade at £2M or above, and they tend to be things with an exceptional heritage. There are the old Silver Arrows, which were special in a number of ways. More recent racing cars of that value would be things like the Porsche 917 and Ferrari 512M. They are special both because they were highlights of the "Golden Era" of sports car racing, and because most of them have a substantial provenance, having been driven by Andretti, Ickx, Peterson, Elford, Siffert, Rodriguez, etc. Apart from the Le Mans winner, how many GTR's have a special provenance? The Harrods car chassis #06R...maybe? He says It's nothing against the people who raced the GTR's, but their names will never have the fan appeal of "Andretti" and "Elford". In the mid-late '90s, sports car racing was a shadow of what it had been 20-40 years earlier. On that last point I agree, but I suppose it depends on your age

He continued by saying unlike another group of expensive vintage racing cars - Maserati 300S, Ferrari 750 Monza, Aston Martin DBR1, etc - there are few events in which one could compete with a GTR. Those older sports cars can also be driven on the road with ease, and they are beautiful to look at. You're not going to take a GTR to a track day, at least not to really drive it. That leaves us with using a GTR on the road. For an hour, it is an absolutely fabulous, enthralling road car. For a day, it is too much. There is no A/C, but the windows don't open. The steering lock is inadequate. The ramp angle is inadequate. You've got that awful wiring loom in the offside passenger seat, but no storage space. The cage makes access into the car difficult, and makes it difficult for a passenger to ride comfortably. After a while, the noise of the straight-cut gears is almost unbearable. Even the standard F1 road car is not practical as a road car, and the racing version is that much less practical. So what's the point of owning one, as an alternative to all the other things that can be got for less than £2M, or less than £1M? The GTR's are fine things, but he daresays that their market value is a function of the road car's value. If there had been no road car, which in a sense would make the GTR's even rarer, he doubts that a GTR would fetch £1M; you can get a Porsche GT1, which was both a rarer and a better racing car, for half as much.

Originally Posted by GTR LVR

When have you heard of a commemorative edition being worth more that the original?

This may be true for after-the-fact, retrospective knock-offs. In the case of limited editions produced within the full production run, however, the limited edition would normally be worth more. The F1 LM will always be worth more than the standard road car. The LM shares some of the GTR's limitations, but not all of them. As I stated in an earlier post, I'll re-visit this later in the week

[mini magic]

Thank you Hurst for that insight

[GTR LVR]

Your contact makes several valid points. No question rarity in and of itself is nothing if the object in question is not desirable. And I could not agree more with his opinion of the GT, which is rare in great part because there was little to no demand for it! The only reason McLaren built it in the first place was due to FIA regulations requiring a 'road going' example as the basis for the 1997 GTR.

He also accurately describes certain differences between the GTR and road car experience, although I think his conclusions to these differences is, as with most things, a personal opinion and not universal. For instance, yes, a GTR is noisier and a far rawer driving experience compared to the road car, but as he stated, neither is a practical daily driver. While the road car is certainly more 'practical,' anyone who has driven or had a ride in both no doubts agrees the GTR makes to road car experience feel almost normal. Both types are really best experienced as relatively short thrill rides, and my point simply is the GTR is a different 'amazing experience.'

As for any bias towards associating famous drivers with cars, each era has its moments and everyone has their favorites. That said, I wouldn't be so certain that Nelson Piquet (3-time F1 world champion) won't hold up against Quick-Vic Elford over time. I would also question the number of racing cars vs. road cars valued over £2M. Whatever the ratio, more types of race cars than I can count trade over that figure from the pre-1980 period, and in fact, it is their unique competition histories (often with obscure drivers and races) that distinguish them.

In summary, clearly everyone is entitled to their opinion, and this includes your friend. The point in all of this is that in my opinion, the GTR on a stand alone basis is a magnificent car, and based on its history, rarity, and the experience it provides, appears undervalued relative to the road car and LM. One person's opinion...

Originally Posted by hurstg01

I've had a nice email from the owner of the F1 I alluded to earlier. In the email he states that, yes, GTR's are more scarce than normal road cars, but there are fewer GT's than LM's, and he doesn't think there is a lengthy queue of people looking to buy one of the "three ungainly Long-tails." Rarity, in itself, is not decisive, which is a valid point.

He states that only one standard road car has ever sold at or above that level, and the price included the auction premium (plus VAT). The car was unique [in as such that it was the ex-Park lane showroom car and had very few miles on it] and the price was achieved after an elaborate marketing campaign which included, purposefully or not, a major underestimate of the selling price which had the effect of hyping the interest. He believes that a realistic price for a typical road car these days would be roughly £1.5M.

He continued by saying there are very few racing cars that trade at £2M or above, and they tend to be things with an exceptional heritage. There are the old Silver Arrows, which were special in a number of ways. More recent racing cars of that value would be things like the Porsche 917 and Ferrari 512M. They are special both because they were highlights of the "Golden Era" of sports car racing, and because most of them have a substantial provenance, having been driven by Andretti, Ickx, Peterson, Elford, Siffert, Rodriguez, etc. Apart from the Le Mans winner, how many GTR's have a special provenance? The Harrods car chassis #06R...maybe? He says It's nothing against the people who raced the GTR's, but their names will never have the fan appeal of "Andretti" and "Elford". In the mid-late '90s, sports car racing was a shadow of what it had been 20-40 years earlier. On that last point I agree, but I suppose it depends on your age

He continued by saying unlike another group of expensive vintage racing cars - Maserati 300S, Ferrari 750 Monza, Aston Martin DBR1, etc - there are few events in which one could compete with a GTR. Those older sports cars can also be driven on the road with ease, and they are beautiful to look at. You're not going to take a GTR to a track day, at least not to really drive it. That leaves us with using a GTR on the road. For an hour, it is an absolutely fabulous, enthralling road car. For a day, it is too much. There is no A/C, but the windows don't open. The steering lock is inadequate. The ramp angle is inadequate. You've got that awful wiring loom in the offside passenger seat, but no storage space. The cage makes access into the car difficult, and makes it difficult for a passenger to ride comfortably. After a while, the noise of the straight-cut gears is almost unbearable. Even the standard F1 road car is not practical as a road car, and the racing version is that much less practical. So what's the point of owning one, as an alternative to all the other things that can be got for less than £2M, or less than £1M? The GTR's are fine things, but he daresays that their market value is a function of the road car's value. If there had been no road car, which in a sense would make the GTR's even rarer, he doubts that a GTR would fetch £1M; you can get a Porsche GT1, which was both a rarer and a better racing car, for half as much.
This may be true for after-the-fact, retrospective knock-offs. In the case of limited editions produced within the full production run, however, the limited edition would normally be worth more. The F1 LM will always be worth more than the standard road car. The LM shares some of the GTR's limitations, but not all of them. As I stated in an earlier post, I'll re-visit this later in the week

[ArchangelGTR]

Only time will tell the true value of GTRs. In most cases the ones with racing pedigrees outsold their pedastrian siblings. 250 GTO comes to mind.

There were a lot of cars that were not sought after initially only to be valued later in life as collectors recalled the "eras" of their time.

[Sami Aaltonen]

Yep, time will tell that, but allready today; some of the GTR's are very high valued, like #01R and all the 1995 finnished GTR's I think. It was legendary race and a big history of Le Mans.

But I also think that the GTR's rispect will go higher by every year, nomather is it 95-96 or 97 Longtail. I think allready now, the BPR GT Series / FIA GT Champpionship 1997 are very rispected things and part of the great motorsport history by cars and teams, when times were good and totally different than today...
Maybe I'm just dreaming or something, but I feel that midlle of the 90's GT cars are hihgly respected at the Motorsport rounds and the values attleast do not come down.

Am I totally wrong now?