Tie Rod Ends: What torque for castellated nut on steering arm?

[sad-lumina-owner]

Changing the tie rod ends on my /94 lumina looks like an easy job.

(the rubber boots are gone, and there's no nipple for the ones on it now, so I can't lube this joint!).

I got new ones for $25 each, (the ones with nipples were actually cheaper than the ones without!) but there is a small snag, because

(1) they seem to be slightly different castings. This means that the thread on the tie-rod itself is no guide for how far to screw the new one back on.

So I'm going to measure carefully the exact distance of the center of the ball joint along the tie-rod past the threads and duplicate that. This should keep the alignment the same as it was before at least.

(2) My Haynes Repair Manual says: "tighten the castellated nut to the torque listed in this Chapter's specifications." (what idiots. It would have been shorter and more accurate to print it right there). Problem is, they don't list the torque for this nut/ press-fit assembly in their list at the chapter head, that I can see.

Under Front Suspension, they list in order:

Control arm pivot bolts.....( variable list based on year and make)...52-83 ft-lbs
Subframe-to-body bolts...............1996 & earlier 103 ft-lbs / post 96.......133 ft-lbs
Lower Balljoint Nut......(variable by yr/make)..........15-84 ft-lbs
Stabilizer bar clamp nuts.................................... 35 ft-lbs
Stabilizer bar link nuts........................................ 17
Front hub and wheel beraring assembly bolts.../96 earlier 52 ft-lbs ....post /96...96 ft-lbs (except olds)

Strut mount cover nuts...
Strut damper shaft nut...
Strut-cartridge nut.............................. 82
Strut-to-knuckle bolts...(97 later xpt Olds) 90
Driveaxle hub nut...................................see chapter 8 (! oh brother)

None of these sounds like the tie-rod joint to steering knuckle arm castellated nut..

So I don't know what torque to tighten that to. Does anyone have any clue, or any authority that lists the torque for this nut?


(3) I apparently need a 'puller' to get the old one out of the joint. Does anyone know what kind of puller, and how to apply it?

(4) Can I check the alignment myself?


This job doesn't look too bad, except for having to buy/borrow a puller and a torque wrench. Any tips and suggestions?

[sad-lumina-owner]

UPDATE:

I found this tidbit on a google search:

(1) Take a BFH [hammer] and hit the spindle on the side where the tie-rod end connects. It will probably take about 3-4 good hits and the tie rod end will drop out (this is a taper fit so if you hit it on the side it will fall out).

(2) Now unscrew the tie-rod end from the connector where it joins the drag link. Count the number of turns and put the new one back in the same number of turns. Note: this may be left-handed threads.
(3) Reassemble in reverse order, be sure when you tighten the castled nut you do not back it off to make the cotter key fit - always tighten to the next slot.

(4) You are only changing toe-in here so if you wanna set toe-in yourself with a tape measure you can instead of paying an alignment shop to do it.

(1) Doesn't sound that safe: Is it a really a good idea to hit this item with a hammer?

(2) Doesn't sound accurate. Any better way to preserve alignment?

(3) Sounds important and useful!

(4) Sounds like a money-saver! Anyone know how to measure toe-in?


Another page recommended:

Use a two-jaw or tie-rod end puller to remove the tie-rod end from the steering knuckle. Start slowly in order to seat the tool properly for good leverage.

...

(6) Use a grease gun to lube the tie-rod ends. Fill until you start to see grease seep out. Wipe off all excess grease to prevent brake contamination.

This also sounded like an important detail!!!

I will look for more info, since so much appears to have been left out by most pages...

I found a video that shows a similar job on youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQ428hwJn38

These guys seem to have no trouble wacking it off with a hammer. But I have to wonder how good this is for your steering assembly..

Here's another video for a truck:

(1) They suggest using wire brush to remove any crap first. This makes good sense, preventing any sand or stuff from contaminating joints.

(2) They also WARN you not to grease anything until everything is installed! The danger is apparently that grease could get on the tapered press-fit joint, or the idler-arm bolt can't be cranked down either, cause it will just slip and spin around.


(3) They prefer a special 'pickle-fork' which easily releases the press-fit tapered bolts and such.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mL7g...eature=related


In this third video (which has the best music) They note that you may need to use vise-grips to prevent the bolt from rotating in the joint while tightening down the castle-nut. That was an important helpful hint! They also recommend vise grips on the tie-rod itself to prevent it rotating while you tighten the lock-nut on the shaft.

They keep track of how far to screw on the tie-rod end by simply "just loosening the lock nut on the tie-rod enough to free it". So the lock-nut itself is used to gauge how far to screw the new one on. (presumably a half-turn to orient the tie-rod end vertically for the joint-hole isn't critical to toe-in).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6DSj...eature=related


this 'Tie Rod' separator ad gives a clear idea of how 'pickle-fork' style tools are properly used.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYfuq...eature=related


This video shows a technique of 'cracking' the seal on a Ball-Joint Taper. But he also warns that this should be done carefully (danger of damaging joint and also getting hit in chest with giant spring!).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tX7GV...eature=related
A commentor for this video had this to say:

This works by delivering a rapid shock through the connected parts and mild temporary malformation of the round tapered hole. As I mentioned heating the outer forging nice and hot then a quick double tap as shown will work better and helps if rust is an issue - just use care before you do this so your friends dont call you springy from being it in the chest with a coil spring.

Heating the outer part of the joint will also do this without heating the taper shaft of the ball joint as it will expand the outer metal and doesnt result is possible cracks to the forging the taper sits in. Even if there's rust the expansion of the outer metal wil break the bond. Remember to keep the nut on the end of the threads when you remove a ball joint the lower control arm is supported by a jack or jackstand especially if there's a coil spring between the frame and lower arm.

at least one video recommended having someone hold the steering wheel to prevent drifting of parts, and also the use of a prybar to hold things from sliding and drifting.

[sad-lumina-owner]

More regarding 'toe-in' and front wheel alignment at the end of the job.

I just learned from watching this video here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nk_-gHeVXFU

that you can do this by eye, and/or using a tape-measure and a test-drive.

What was important, was I learned that the actual tie-rod itself can rotate, and this adjusts the toe-in!

This is a crucial detail not mentioned by those explaining how to change a tie-rod end.

Obviously if the bar has been accidentally rotated, then putting the new tie-rod end in the exact same position as the old one on the end of the bar is meaningless!

So the real function of the 'lock-nut' design on the tie-rod is for adjusting toe-in, by rotating the tie-rod bar itself (this can be done either with a wrench, if the rod has a flat spot, or with vise-grips).

I guess that the other (inner) end of the tie-rod either rotates freely in some socket or else is reverse-threaded so that (like a clothesline tightener) turning the rod pulls the ends together or pushes them apart.

The end result of this excursion is that one should not rotate the tie rod at all, if trying to preserve the original toe-in.

[sad-lumina-owner]

I found this explanation of how to loosen troublesome nuts:

The Tie Rod End:

The end connects to the strut with a conical 'rod' locked with a nut, and the tie rod screws into the end and also has a locking nut.

Either one of these nuts can be difficult to remove - - so here's how.


(1) Using the 22mm (I think) spanner, release the locking nut on the tie rod (the one that locks the rod to the end).

This may be quite difficult, but since the end is still bolted to the strut, it will not turn so this is easier. Sometimes the tie rod turns with the nut, in which case:

• Use plenty of WD40 (probably a good idea anyway)

• Use the wire brush to clean the threads (probably a good idea anyway)

• Use the locking pliers to hold the tie rod, and release the nut

(2) Using a socket, release the nut that locks the ball joint to the strut. You can expect this nut to be quite stuck as well. If you let the steering rack move to full lock, you'll have something to push against. Remove this nut completely.

The ball joint must now be removed from the strut. And, it will probably be stuck as well... So, just use the bottle jack to hold the strut - put it under the bits that the ball joint is in, as close as possible to the ball joint, and lift it a bit - just enough for the jack to take the weight. Then hit the stud on the ball joint - sooner or later, it will pop out.


When you have the ball joint free, remove it from the tie rod, and count the number of turns. Then, put on the new one, with the same number of turns. This will set the tracking close enough so you can drive the car to the garage for accurate tracking - it's *not* good enough to keep.

Put the ball joint in the strut, and tighten the locking nut. The ball joint may turn in it's hole, so use the locking pliers to apply a *bit* of pressure to it while you tighten. Once it 'catches' it's usually OK.
Tighten the tie rod locking nut - this time, use two spanners, one on the nut and one on the tie rod end. The easier method is only good for a ball joint you're about to throw away.

My Notes: Liquid Wrench apparently works far better than WD40.

The locking pliers (vise-grips) are placed so that they lean against some part of the frame to prevent them turning.

Notice that the 'tie rod end' is also a ball-joint, although the actual 'ball joints' (upper and lower) are entirely different joints, which hold the wheel on, and are not part of the steering. This is just a terminology cafuffle.

This guy seems to be suggesting using the jack holding up the front end to assist in freeing the tapered bolt. I am not sure how good this idea is. I am betting on the fork tool being the best approach. Even hitting the fork tool seems better than hitting part of the wheel.

Again this guy suggests that 'counting turns' is going to be inaccurate as a means of setting toe-in.

I like the idea suggested by someone of using the lock nut to keep track, but this will only work if the tie rod itself is not rotated, and the replacement tie rod end is identical to the old one.

It seems simpler and sensible just to take some accurate measurements for where the original tie rod end is, (center of joint to a point on the tie rod) and duplicate this distance, while preventing tie rod from rotating.

Again, nobody seems to know or care what the torque is supposed to be for this castle-nut! This is really beginning to bother me.

[sad-lumina-owner]

Here's the nearest answer yet:

Q: I am looking for the torque specs for a 89 lincoln towncar tie rod end.Thanks

A: Tight as you can get it with a 6-7" box wrench is plenty close enough.

Somehow I'm not very satisfied with this answer.

[sad-lumina-owner]

Okay I've located this info:

Honda Civic: The torque specification for the tie rod end is 32 ft. lbs.


Here seems to be the most accurate spec for general case:

...Thread on the castellated nut and torque to 35-45 lb-ft. If the hole on the bolt and the notches in the nut do not line up tighten the nut so that one does. DO NOT LOOSEN TO MAKE THE HOLES LINE UP. Install cotter pin and bend so that it does not fall out.

If you are not setting the toe yourself tighten the lock nut and torque to 35-46 lb-ft.


http://www.v8sho.com/SHO/TieRodEndRe...tProcedure.htm

I think I'm going to go with 35-40 ft-lb.

[sad-lumina-owner]

I found a webpage that gives a great simple method for doing your own 'toe-in' adjustment, after you are done.


This is done by marking the tires with a line by painting the tread and scratching it with a nail, then measuring and comparing front distances to back distances (repeating if necessary).

The actual adjustment is done by loosening the locknut on the tie rods, and turning them a little, then tightening the locknut back up:

http://www.extremehowto.com/xh/artic...ticle_id=60130

[maxwedge]

The problem with this technique is it does not take into account any runout in the wheel, tire or hub. This is compensated for on an alignment machine procedure. Also, it is very difficult in a fwd car to measure 180 degrees opposed points on the ft and and rear of the tire due to suspension and chassis interference. Also to be accurate the wheels must be dead straight and in line with the rear wheels to have a dead on toe setting. This is good procedure to get it into the " ball park" only.

[sad-lumina-owner]

Update on Tie Rod Ends:

Here is my solution to some of the obviously inaccurate and vulnerable to error suggestions regarding replacing your tie rod ends:

The method I used will work providing one factor is true. That your front wheels are at least adequately aligned already, before you start. If you've been driving them without problems (like oddly worn tires or pull to one side) this is a reasonable assumption.

You can do no worse than replace a tie rod end and leave your alignment intact, whatever state it is in.

You may always opt to have the toe-in checked/adjusted again later.



(1) The first key is to realise that there are TWO factors that will put your alignment out during a replacement:

(a) screwing the tie rod end on too far or too near.

In my case, I noticed that there were TWO possible replacement parts available: a 'stock' part that seemed to be the same as the one on my car, and a replacement part that had a grease nipple. I chose the one with the grease nipple, so that I could maintain its condition longer. But there was a slight difference in the casting between these two parts, which would affect the distance that the locknut on the tie-rod would end up at.

Its important to realise that the critical distance is not determined by the position of the locknut, but by the position of the ball-joint along the tie rod.

The position of the ball joint is what must be maintained, to keep the same alignment, and so the old position of the locknut is NOT a reliable guide. All methods which use the original position of the locknut or the original extension of the tie rod end casting as a guide are open to an error if the length of the casting is not identical to the original part.

This includes using the locknut, or using a mark/tape on the tie rod relative to the old tie rod end, and also 'counting the turns' you took to screw on or unscrew the tie rod end.

Only MY new method shown here will guarantee the original alignment will be maintained, even under conditions of slightly different replacement parts.

(b) failing to maintain the position (rotation) of the tie rod itself.

This is another plain flaw in any method which tries to simply screw the new part on, or measure from a mark or point on the tie rod itself. Since the rod can change its position relative to the car if it is screwed further in or further out, it must be held in its original position (rotationally) for any measurements made on it to have meaning or be of any use.

To overcome both these problems, I devised a new and simple way of marking the original alignment.

First I mark the rotation of the tie rod itself, by drawing a straight line along the top of the rod carefully, so that if it rotates slightly in either direction (say if the rod turns along with the locknut) it can be noticed and immediately restored.

Care must be taken when you are loosening the locknut on the tie rod that you notice if just the nut is turning, or if the whole nut and rod are turning relative to the tie rod end.

Here is a close up picture of the tie rod, and the line I put along the top (the most convenient place) so that I can tell if the rod has been accidentally rotated. I made this mark with a medium/heavy black (permanent) magic-marker.

When getting in and marking the shaft it is a good idea to take a close look at the threads so that you do not attempt to turn the locknut the wrong way.





To solve the second problem, that of mismatching of replacement parts (e.g. length of arm with thread inside), make a second set of marks:

(a) I mark the center of the old tie rod end ball joint itself with a dot. (You can skip this step if your tie rod end already has a centered grease nipple here. I will make all measurements from this point to a convenient point along the shaft. It is this point on the tie rod end that is critical to match with the new part.

(b) I mark the tie rod itself with a line a fixed distance from the centerpoint of the ball joint on the tie rod end, because this ensures that the shaft (if it has not been rotated) will be the same distance away from the new ball joint.

The picture below illustrates the two markings. In my case, I made the distance exactly 9 inches, then drew the line around the tie rod shaft.

In conjunction with keeping the tie rod from rotating, this will maintain exactly the same alighnment that the car had before the replacement, and thats the best one can hope to do without paying for a toe-in alignment.

It should be noted that front-wheel drive cars often don't need caster alignments, because they can't be adjusted at all.

[sad-lumina-owner]

There are 3 tough problems with the tie rod end swap, and they're all to do with cracking the rusty nuts etc.

(1) The Tie Rod Locknut. I show in the following photos how I did this for the drivers side.

Here you want to prevent BOTH the tie ROD and the tie rod END from turning, while you loosen the locknut. I secured the tie rod with vise-grips (locking pliers) and the tie rod end with a very large adjustable wrench (see pic):



I had extra room here for the visegrips because we didn't replace the plastic mud guard after doing a brakeline on this side.

I love these giant adjustable wrenches. Although they cost $25 they replace about 30 large spanners and can be adjusted exactly to any nut, metric or British, saving me hundreds of dollars (nobody has a cheap set of large wrenches: individual ones cost about $20 each!)

For the locknut I used the one size smaller (no room for the big one).




It took about 8 bangs with a hammer to free this nut.






(2) The Tie Rod End Castle Nut. This is a problem because (in my case at least) the codder-pin was too badly rusted to grip and bend and easily remove. I solved this by bending and snapping off as much as I could with needle-nose pliers, and crushing the rest while using a LARGE ratchet (Johnson bar) to unscrew the nut. The socket is 18mm (19mm can damage bolt, making it harder).

Once the Johnson bar loosened the nut (and crushed off the codderpin) I switched to a medium (1/2") ratchet to get the nut the rest of the way. To put the new one on, I used the cheap ($20) Torque socket bar from CanTire.

[sad-lumina-owner]

(3) The actual tapered balljoint shaft / seat.

This is where I met my waterloo.

On the driver's side it was no problem. The $15 'tie rod end' tool (pickle fork) got the tapered shaft popped out in less than ten taps.

Before unscrewing the old tie rod end, I butted up the locknut to it again, just to ballpark that, then unscrewed it.

The new one went on, and I kept the orientation of the tie rod vertical (using my line along the top) and got the tapered shaft pointing down. It was very close, but I measured the centered nipple - to - line on tie rod (9") to be sure. (my second set of marks).

Not familiar with torque, I used the torque wrench to give about 40 foot-lbs of pressure on the new castle nut, and then cranked it more to align the codderpin hole and inserted the codder pin.

I had not greased anything yet, because I wanted to avoid getting any grease on breaks or other important parts (like the taper shaft) while installing.

Now I greased the tie rod end until some squeaked out under the rubber boot (and also did the lower balljoint).

All went without a hitch until I got into the passenger side!


AAAAAHHHHH!


Used Liquid wrench on both nuts and got them off with about the same effort.

Then came the taper/seat problem. I used the tool, but failed to pop off the tapered shaft.

I tried tapping the sides with a hammer (just hard enough to shock the join).

I tried tapping upward on the shaft (probably not a good idea) until the end was starting to burr.

I tried hitting down, sideways, up back, and finally tried using the fork as a prybar. It snapped right off!

So much for steel. There was some kind of flaw or else the casting was cheap steel or wrong temp or something.

Now I was without a tool and without a car.

I am seriously thinking about attempting to drive the car to the parts/garage in this condition, but won't do it unless its a last resort.

I tried heating the seat with a propane torch.

I left Liquid Wrench on it overnight. I will tell you what happens next...


While examining the passenger side, I discovered that the giant coil spring on the strut had snapped about one turn from the bottom. This seems incredible (the spring is like 5/8" thick!).

Unless there was a flaw in the spring, this is not GM's fault, but rather the dealer who sold me the car 5 years ago. We have never done any real off-road driving with this car, and I think I would have noticed the bang of a spring this large breaking... I must assume it was always like this.

But since I have never noticed it, perhaps it doesn't even matter. There must be 3/4 to 7/8 of the spring still working.

But now I wonder if the car wasn't in some kind of accident before we bought it. This might also explain why the damn tie rod end on this side won't come out! I am praying that a different tool could pull this thing even though the fork and the banging couldn't....

Never good to find out more bad news about my own car.

[sad-lumina-owner]

Does anyone know if either of these other tools could remove or help remove the taper shaft on the tie rod end?

http://www.jcwhitney.com/PERFORMANCE...1460_10112.jcw


http://www.jcwhitney.com/Steering-Su...1460_10112.jcw

[Blue Bowtie]

I've had fairly good success with heating the boss on the steering knuckle (the hole through which the tie rod stud passes) and using a good quality separator fork, either manual or pneumatic:

[sad-lumina-owner]

Originally Posted by sad-lumina-owner

Does anyone know if either of these other tools could remove or help remove the taper shaft on the tie rod end?

http://www.jcwhitney.com/PERFORMANCE...1460_10112.jcw


http://www.jcwhitney.com/Steering-Su...1460_10112.jcw

update:

the 'Tie rod end/ pitmann puller' can't fit on the wheel mount, so it can't press out the tie rod end on a lumina.

As you may have noticed, the 'pickle fork' balljoint removal tool broke. This may have partly been because it was the wrong size (it was a 15/16, and the actual tie rod end remover is supposed to be 11/32).

But the 11/32 tool would not pop the taper either!

I am thinking that a pneumatic version of the 'pickle fork' might do the job, but I don't have air pressure or a pneumatic gun.

CanTire (who sold me the tie rod end) want $75 to install it (or more, if they have any special problems I suppose...)

I have put the old nut back on so I can continue to drive while I figure out what to do...the casing for the tie rod balljoint is now cracked, and I'm afraid it might break open and disconnect the wheel from the tie rod.

This is starting to psych me out.

They had a tool kit for $260 (which I can return) but it seems to have all the same parts as the tools I've already tried, most of which are irrelevant to this particular job. And I am leary of damaging part of a kit that costs $260, since I won't get that money back if something goes wrong.

My final hope is to see what my mechanic buddy says. Maybe he can do what has so far defied all reason: crack the taper on the passenger-side tie rod end.

[Blue Bowtie]

Back off the stem nut but leave it on the stud to protect the threads. Heat the knuckle thoroughly. Place a punch against the stud and hammer is sharply with a heavy blow. Repeat as necessary.