2005 GTO vs 2004 Corvette/2004 Cobra

[PewterTAWS6]

I recently checked out some of the new cars that are coming out soon and was surprised to see that the Pontiac GTO was getting the LS2 engine for the 2005 model year. So I wondered how would it fare against last years Vette or the Cobra. Since they are both pretty close in performance.
Anybody have any new information or thoughts on these matchups.

[kman10587]

I'm glad to see all the muscle cars making such big leaps. The new Mustang, the new Corvette, and the new GTO are all very good cars for the price. Dodge is bringing back the Charger too, and it looks promising. The Chevelle might even come back too.

The new GTO with the LS2 looks very good, but I don't think it's quite ready to run with a Corvette; it needs to go on a serious diet first.

[PewterTAWS6]

I think with the extra 50hp it mgiht be able to beat both of the other cars. Ofcourse we still have to see if Pontiac did as they said they would and get rid of some of that weight. But it should be a fast car for sure.
As far as the new Charger goes. I dont think its gonna be too good its first year. From what ive seen it is even heavier than the GTO and will have less power. I believe it was said to be somewhere in the neighborhood of about 4100 lbs. Now thats a fat piggie.
But yeah it is nice to see all the muscle cars on the rise. I heard that there is gonna be a new bill being passed around 2008 that reduces emissions again. Are we looking at the end of high HP cars again?

[FordJunky]

i dont think itll keep up just based on the weight... but will be very close. and i cant wait for the charger, the gto was kinda a letdown (granted if they make the judge they might redeem themselves) all my hopes rest in the charger now (with the exception of the shelby nameplate returning to the mustang)

[kman10587]

Shelby Cobra vs. GTO Judge...that'd be too much fun.

[Sean_S]

Eh hate to break it to you, but the GTO (2004) is a step backwards really. It's handling is exactly what fits the American stereotype, and with dealer price hikes it is really not worth the money. Adding 50 (2005) more horsepower and a bunch of ground effects isn't going to change any of that. I'm not defending the Cobra either though. I'm a Mustang nut but I can admit that the Cobra also falls into this catagory. I really hope that the performance ability of the 2005 Mustang, if Motor Trend's numbers are acturate, and the C6's proven track ability forces American companies to go back to the drawing boards and give up this "straight line is everything" mentality that is killing American cars. The straight line era is dead.

Of course, you can have the agrument that normal driving won't show the difference between a Cobra and an Evolution, but when has normal driving ever mattered? If it did, why do people brag about top speeds?

[PewterTAWS6]

American Cars have plenty of handling ability. For one the Corvette C6 has a .94 lateral G. And the C5 Corvette had a .90 Lateral G, could be lowered for free, and both have a perfect 50/50 weight distribution. And the corvette ZO6 had a .99-1.00 Lateral G. That is more than the Saleen S7, Ferrari Enzo and many other cars. And the Cobra had a .90 Lateral G.

Here are some handling numbers on some of the most popular foreign cars.

Mazda RX-8: .88G
Lancer Evolution: .88G
WRX STI: .88G
Acura NSX: .91G

All these numbers where provided by Road and Track November 2003 Issue.
So i say, "we lack handling," HA HA HA. All of our performance cars outhandle even all-wheel drive cars.

[Sean_S]

Originally Posted by PewterTAWS6

American Cars have plenty of handling ability. For one the Corvette C6 has a .94 lateral G. And the C5 Corvette had a .90 Lateral G, could be lowered for free, and both have a perfect 50/50 weight distribution. And the corvette ZO6 had a .99-1.00 Lateral G. That is more than the Saleen S7, Ferrari Enzo and many other cars. And the Cobra had a .90 Lateral G.

Here are some handling numbers on some of the most popular foreign cars.

Mazda RX-8: .88G
Lancer Evolution: .88G
WRX STI: .88G
Acura NSX: .91G

All these numbers where provided by Road and Track November 2003 Issue.
So i say, "we lack handling," HA HA HA. All of our performance cars outhandle even all-wheel drive cars.

Wow... um what are the prices on those cars? They aren't even in the same brackets. Had you read my post, you would notice I already mentioned the C6 and 2005 Mustang. So what was your point again? Beyond that, skidpad is NOT the best way to test handling. All it tells is roadholding in a circle.

*edit*
Oh and as of your original post, putting the GTO and the C6 in the same sentence is an insult to the Corvette. Not even closely the same car.

[FordJunky]

well, road holding is in my opinion handling at its best as far as weight distrubution and suspension goes, if a car can hold the road better in a circle itll do it better in corners to the only thing it doesnt measure is quick change of direction which is where u run the slalom, so if a cras better in the g robit and slalom it handles better. and when i said they could redeem the gto with the judge i meant handling and weight, not power cause it already has plenty of that. and if they do go ahead with the shelby cobra u can bet it will handle, thats what the original shelbys were, track cars. and as far as price, the nsx was the most expensive and in my opinion the most overrated. the new corvette owns all those cars.

[PewterTAWS6]

Finally something me and Fordjunky agree on. And i am comparing the 05 GTO to the C5 Vette. And the GTO is a nice car, the only thing holding it back is the weight. But how can you not like a car with an LS2, 54/46 weight distribution, and a corvette ZO6 transmission. And Sean you said american cars. Well lets look at it, there really arent a whole lot of them. Because American car guys dont consider V6's or I-4's to be performance vehicles. So there is only Mustangs, Vettes, Vipers, GTO's, and F-Bodies to relly choose from. Oh and another thing, the Corvette C5's are selling for barely more than STI's and Evo's, now. I have seen them advertised at $29k in Atlanta Georgia, in the Corvette Trader, for brand new.
And Skidpad or Lateral G is the only real way to test a cars handling. You cant go by the slalom or other road tests, because different power outputs. The Skidpad is the only place where are things are equally tested. And the only rel test that matters for handling.

[Sean_S]

Originally Posted by FordJunky

well, road holding is in my opinion handling at its best as far as weight distrubution and suspension goes, if a car can hold the road better in a circle itll do it better in corners to the only thing it doesnt measure is quick change of direction which is where u run the slalom (usually heavy cars dont change direction as well, ie. cobra but the corvette is fairly light weight so...) and when i said they could redeem the gto with the judge i meant handling and weight, not power cause it already has plenty of that. and if they do go ahead with the shelby cobra u can bet it will handle, thats what the original shelbys were, track cars. and as far as price, the nsx was the most expensive and in my opinion the most overrated. the new corvette owns all those cars.

Therein lies the problem. Most tracks good tracks aren't just one long oval. At least the slalom pulls out the body roll in the car, which is something a skidpad can't show. This is a hugely important stat as heavy bodied cars, like the old SS Camaro, car hold in a circle very well but roll like none other. In the end, full out track running is the only way to prove a car's worth. The japanese cars (At least the ones at 30k range, NSX is not useful in that list) he listed have proven themselves, whereas the current GTO, and sadly, the old Mustangs have failed.

I am by no means a Japanese lover, in fact I'm much more American fan boy, but I guess I am getting tired of substandard handling on lower priced cars. American cars aren't going to be able to compete if this trend doesn't end. Luckily, Ford (2005 Mustang) , Dodge (STR-4), Chevy (C6), and Cadillac (CTS/CTS-V) have figured this out. It just makes me cringe when I read that the next Charger is going to be 4100 pounds or the best thing touted in the new GTO is the horsepower.

[Sean_S]

Originally Posted by PewterTAWS6

And Sean you said american cars. Well lets look at it, there really arent a whole lot of them. Because American car guys dont consider V6's or I-4's to be performance vehicles. So there is only Mustangs, Vettes, Vipers, GTO's, and F-Bodies to relly choose from.

And bam, that's my point. There isn't much to choose from, and that needs to end. I just don't get why people are so against pushing for better handling American cars. Sorry, but track numbers don't lie. Beyond the z06, the new C6, and the Viper, there are no real threats to the various Evolutions and WRXs of the world. Is it me, or does that seems awfully wrong? Too many people see 400 horsepower and are satisfied. If horsepower were everything, then why do these little 200-300 horsepower 4-bangers keep selling?

[PewterTAWS6]

Those little junk wagons keep selling because of uninformed kids and movies. There arent any movies glamorizing muscle cars in them. Atleast not any good ones. And the Evos and STI's are AWD and still arent fast. The Cobra can beat them both, the Mach 1 should be somewhere close and F-Bodies beat them both. Look at the MPH or trap speed, that gives you somewhat of an idea of how fast the car really is. And as me and forjunky have said, a set of DR will get our cars better1/4 times than the AWD cars, because we trap anywhere from 106-112 depending on the car and driver. Those things only trap around 103.

[FordJunky]

when u combine the g orbit and slalom thats the best way to test handling abilities. the corvette excels at both, the cobra didnt cause its pretty heavy (slalom) and no matter how good ur suspension is or how good the weight distribution is ull eventually lose the war to momentum.

[Sean_S]

Originally Posted by PewterTAWS6

Those little junk wagons keep selling because of uninformed kids and movies. There arent any movies glamorizing muscle cars in them. Atleast not any good ones. And the Evos and STI's are AWD and still arent fast. The Cobra can beat them both, the Mach 1 should be somewhere close and F-Bodies beat them both. Look at the MPH or trap speed, that gives you somewhat of an idea of how fast the car really is. And as me and forjunky have said, a set of DR will get our cars better1/4 times than the AWD cars, because we trap anywhere from 106-112 depending on the car and driver. Those things only trap around 103.

I think you are missing my point here. I'm not talking about straight line speed. I am talking about track performance, not drag. There isn't one American car that can match an, on a track, Evolution MR or STI under the C6, which is 45k as opposed to 30-32k. This a huge problem. It's no secret that lower end handling on American cars is non-existant. It's no secret that Car and Driver and Motor Trend rarely mix Japanese/European and American cars (40k down) on the track because it's a bad match up. It's no secret that the world looks at American cars as nothing but heavy barges that turn leftish and rightish. If you're happy with that, I can't change that. Personally, I am sick of it.

And if you say something like, "Well straight line is all that matters on the street." then again, why do people brag about top speed? Because they have the car magazine numbers to back it up.