95 Bonni won't crank over

[oldguyhd]

My kids Bonnie ran for him one minute, after shutting it off it has not started since. Test light showed there was no power to the ignition post of the solinoid when cranked. All fuses have been checked. When shorting across the solinoid with screwdriver, car cranks and runs for as long as I have the solinoid shorted. It dies as soon as the short is removed. I have been told there is no starter relay on the car? I have also been told it is the iginition switch. Have a new one ordered. Anyone have any other ideas on this? I'm about ready to sell all my GM tools on Ebay! The car is non turbo 3.8 and sitting 25 miles from home. So I have to take all tools with me to work on it.
Thanks

[Bassasasin]

Im looking at a Mitchell book wiring circuit. I have 3.. 3800 engines and have some resources to look over for you.

There is a security enable start circuit and a starter enable relay just above the Instrument panel fuse block..
Theres a 60 amp fuse #2 under the hood on the right hand side.


Tracking the wires on the schematic.. from the starter back.

THe solonoid control line {PURPLE} traces back and comes from a Park or Neutral shift position switch in the engine motor compartment near the transaxle.(popular failure) Then backing up {YELLOW} it comes from that security start relay under the instrument panel. That relay closes when the security is OK.. key etc. Theres a 10 amp fuse that provides power to the relay coil {PURPLE} side and the security control module goes low {YELLOW/BLACK} when its ok but not really power to the security box, I think the security module just will provide a low to the relay pulling in the relay and allowing the voltage from the ignition/starter switch to pass through its other points side {Yellow}.. the ignition/start switch gets its source {RED} from back at that 60 amp fuse under the hood.. Fuse #2


Hope this helps.. drag a couple fuses and that relay... but I think your close because the ignition system needs to keep power after the key gets back to run. Wasnt quite sure if wouldnt run or just crank.. .
I suppose you bypass the security, the shift position switch and the ignition switch when you put power to the solonoid..


Good Luck

[oldguyhd]

Well, the Bonnie won't crank with the key. It will crank and run with the solinoid shorted with the key in the run pos. It dies as soon as the short at the solinoid is removed and won't crank on its own. There is no power to the ign post of the solinoid when turning the key to the start position.
It's looking like 10 inches of snow starting tomorrow night and the new ignition switch won't be in until Tuesday. It's going to be a couple days before I can get back to it. Will see what else I can find with your info.
Thanks

[Bassasasin]

I hate to say it but looking further it may be the VATS system.. try another key.. sortof fix...

Vats controls the fuel pulses and the starter enable also...

Do you have a security light.. if so..

If you do get it started I have heard it defaults after it runs for a while.. kindof a security thing... maybe not tho.. .


Geez.. .

Good Luck

[Mickey#1]

How long does the security light stay on when the key is turned to the run position?

[oldguyhd]

Had supposed trouble with the VATS system a year ago ang replaced the key then. I have learned from here there is a problem with a ground under the carpet that is probably the reason for those problems. Will do that one when I get it home again. Tehy have now put us into the 10-16 in snow band for tonight. I have to go try today and hope it's the relay. The fuses have already checked good. I will try to get the how long the security light stays on.
I was told the the only reason the car runs while shorted at the starter is that it is feeding power back up the ign wire while shorted. It dies as soon as the power is pulled from that ign post.
Thanks Bass and Mikey

[oldguyhd]

I have checked all the fuses and relays I could find. Even the dealer can't tell me for sure where the "starter enable relay" is. They say it's towards the center of the car in the under hood relay center. Going by 3 different suggestions, I replaced the iginition switch to get the exact same response. The security light comes on for about 4-5 seconds. I will try to track the power from the 60 amp fuse on down to the starter and see where I'm losing it at. The dealer did say that a "test lead" could be connected across the park/neutral switch. I'll have to look at it closer and see.

[oldguyhd]

Went to the car today. New stuff is that I was sure I timed the secruity light at 4-5 seconds. Now it won't go off. This is after disconnecting the battery several times and installing the new ignition switch. Is there something else that has to be reset after the install? I also checked for power at the yellow wire going into the Park/Neut switch from the ignition switch, there is none. The small red wire does come on at the same place. Replaced the relay under the hood, no change after that. Checked the power at the 60 amp fuse and it's good there. I'll be on this all day tomorrow. Any ideas? Any way to disable the vats system?

[Mickey#1]

Just to be 100% certain - did you replace the ignition switch or lock cylinder & key?

[Bassasasin]

As Micky#1 says. The VATS module is married to the key's resistance.
When the VATS is working it enables the start relay and the fuel pulses.
When turning to start, you should hear the start VATS start enable relay click under the dash behind left side of the instrument panel.

The Schematic says its a YELLOW wire from the Park Neutral position switch.
AND in another start enable diagram a Yellow wire from from the ignition start schematic. It shows NO under hood start relay. Just soz you know. Theres a start relay switch FUSE #1 under the I/P. The starter Enable Relay is also there in the schematic. The circuit also allows for the bulb checks for burnt tail lights etc.. if that works, then that fuse is ok.

I NOTED theres a possibility the Yellow wire is located on a different switch circuit ... the red wire shows on the ignition switch but not on the SHIFT POSITION SWITCH. The YELLOW wire is on both diagrams going to the start/security relay. Wierd.. theres a Park neutral transaxle range switch (left rear of engine on transaxle).


ANYWAY you basically got to get that security light off.. it may be from the anti theft circuit and things like the door key switches, trunk, rear door latch switch.




Good Luck

[oldguyhd]

OK I replaced the ing swtch NOT the lock cyl. This is what I've found as of last visit with the car. There is a wire harness plug about a foot from the park/neut switch in the eng compartment. While holding the key in the crank position there is no power on the yellew wire to the swtch. While doing this there is power on the yellow wire coming out of the ign swtch. The security light MAY have been on because I think I had the trunk open while trying to start it, will check that later today. After going to three auto parts stores and the dealer parts/svc, they all agree on one thing. They say there is no starter enable relay on the car. I know, my diagram shows it there between the ing swtch and the park/neu switch too. I'm going to check the power out of the ign wiring plug (firewall side of the plug) and see if the power is going through the plug or not. From the plug, it looks like it goes right through the firewall to the eng compartment. If it does, I can check the yellow wire coming out of the plug and see if it goes directly to the park neutral switch. If it does, then no relay. My book is too generic and may not be model specific enough. Will be back later.
Thanks again.

[Mickey#1]

Power comes through the ignition switch
to the starter relay then
to the park/neutral switch then
to the starter solenoid.

Yes Virginia, there is a starter relay. I can't believe a dealer wouldn't know this. I've seen it referred to as both a "starter enable relay" & "starter interrupt relay".

Is the security light staying on or not?

[oldguyhd]

The security light was staying on. I ran a jumper from the Ign switch to the park/neu switch and got it to crank over. Could not find the fuel pump hot lead. NEVER found the start relay. I know it's got to be there somewhere under the right side dash. I've given it over to the dealer to put it on diagnostic and tell me what's wrong and where. I'm pretty sure it's in the VATS or the "non existant relay". Could also be something real easy like a broken wire some where. Will find out and let everyone know, if nothing else but just to know. Why am I not going to be surprised when they try to charge me for a Starter enable relay? Will have to remind them they can't charg for something they said doesn't exist..
Thanks for all the hints and help anyway, it gave me places and things to check.

[Mickey#1]

The usual problem when the security light stays on is that the Vats module can’t read the resistance of the key pellet. I would have had you wire in a 79 cent resistor that matches the resistance of the key pellet. The only drawback is that the security system would be disabled.

[oldguyhd]

Back from the Dealer "with the car". It turned out to be the broken wire at the lock cylinder. Dealer price was over $250.00 labor and $135 for parts. I got the lock cylinder at local auto parts (had it on the shelf) for $36.00. The cyl ships with cut keys to use as guides to cut the new VATS keys. Got lucky and the old vats keys I had contained enough metel to recut to fit the the new lock. It did take close to 4 hours to get the job done enough to start it and drive it home. I still have to get the column assembled correctly. It tough getting the spring and all bacg in there compressed. I would recommend that anyone doing this job get the $1.50 snap ring to put in a new one. When they come apart too many times they tend to get bent. Can't get them right again trying to bend them back. The $38.00 spent on an unneeded ignition switch was a lesson learned. Even 3 parts guys and the dealer can all be wrond at the same time. But it runs again. Thanks for helping on this problem. It would have taken much longer without that help.