Oil Level - How Important Keeping It at Top Mark?

[DOCTORBILL]

I have always wanted to know if it is Really Important to keep the level at
the top mark on the dipstick, or is it not that big of a deal?

I ask now that The Phoenix is using a tad while the new rings are being worn in.

I was always worried about engine wear when I would find my wife's vehicle's
dip stick dry down to the bottom mark (or worse!).....

The oil pump sucks oil off of the bottom of the pan and distributes the oil throughout
the engine.

But isn't it also important to have oil for the crank to slop around in?

I just found some SAE 5w-30 oil at Wal-Mart for $7.50 for a 5 quart plastic bottle. ($1.25 per quart)

No-name oil....is that bad also?

DoctorBill

[Crvett69]

as long as its above the add mark on the stick your fine. main thing on the oil is to make sure it has at least a SF rating and that it is not recycled oil

[DOCTORBILL]

The Wal-Mart Oil is "Super Tech" API Service SM, SL, SJ, SH, ILSAC GF-4, GF-3 API Certified, made in the USA.

I checked all over the labels (front & back) for any reference to being recycled oil.

Nothing shows it being made from recycled oil.

I checked the Chevron Supreme I buy at COSTCO, that I have used for many years, and nowhere
on it is any "SF" rating either....Chevron Supreme is API SM and ILSAC GF-4.

What is SF rated oil and who sells it?

DoctorBill

[Crvett69]

anything "higher" than sf is fine, SF, SG, SH, etc

[idmetro]

I've found that the Schucks in my area runs a special on either Chevron or Shell oil about every 6-8 weeks where they have a little coupon (usually in the Sunday paper) that brings the price down to $1,25 - $1.50 a quart and then if you buy a case and send in their little rebate you can get it down to the .80-.90 a quart range. I haven't always remembered to send in the form so now what I do is get an envelope ready before I leave the house, buy the oil with the coupon, put the rebate form and receipt in the envelope and stick it in my own mailbox to go out when I get back home. A few weeks later the rebate check arrives and I've gotten a deal on my oil. The rebate check isn't large but typically covers a hamburger combo at the drive through.

[DOCTORBILL]

I have always wondered whether the Brand Name you go out of your way to buy
is really any better than the "No Name" stuff in the generic bottle....

From stories I have heard, the Brand Name and the No Name bottles are filled at
the same place with the same exact material.

I also heard that the No Name Gasoline you can get at "One Stops" and Jack's Gasoline and DNA Store
is just whatever was left over in the Tanker Truck (and maybe with a couple thousand gallons of
used motor oil thrown in) after the normal deliveries.
So you never know exactly what you are getting.....who's blend and what crap is tossed in with it!

I worked at a generic 'Oil Company' for one summer back in 1968 in Fullerton, California
in the lab right after I got my Bachelor's Degree.

They compounded Motor Oil for Quaker Oil (don't see that around any more...).
I quality tested the formulation before it was released.

All the ingredaments were secret and were just numbered fluids we mixed in
proportions given to us on a sheet of paper. They bottled it into quart cans.
I didn't pay much attention being a young person with a new, exciting, hot to
trot girlfriend, but I bet that HUGE TANK of compounded oil didn't just go into
Quaker Cans....

One thing I do remember was the Mexican workers dumping big bags of Flowers
of Sulfur into the Huge Mixing Tank and the compounded oil being heated with burners
until the sulfur dissolved in the oil mixture.

The Sulfur (5% or so?) makes the motor oil yellow!

I asked the Head Chemist why Sulfur was put into oil - and so much?

He said sulfur forms Iron (or Ferric) Sulfide on all the hot metal surfaces and acts as a
slippery, lubricating "skin" so that the Iron (steel) doesn't wear.

Cute, Huh?

DoctorBill

[Crvett69]

schucks still sells quaker state oil

[tmaxmetro]

I'm no chemist - but I do know that the oil I drain out of the car is usually much thinner than the oil I put into the car - even after I let it cool down and reach the same temperature. The drained oil is also considerably darker than the oil I put in.

So what has happened between the time you put the oil into the car and when you drain it out of the car? I'll assume :
- contaminants in the oil like sludge, carbon, dirt, gasoline, steel, etc.
- breakdown of the oil caused by repetitive heating/cooling and being pumped around

Is a $3 quart of oil 3 times better than a $1 quart of oil? I doubt it. I'd probably lean towards the advantages of buying cheaper oil and changing it more frequently. You'd be saving money because the oil is cheaper - the engine would most likely remain cleaner, and the oil in the vehicle would be fresher.

Although my practise is usually to make sure the oil level is good, change the oil at a decent interval and not give brand name too much thought...

cheers,

[HannabilRox]

Maybe there is a "Consumers Report" type write up about these oils and what the real truth is?

How about synthetics that are supposed to last one year or 20 some thousand miles without changing in between?

Is the 3,000 mile change interval just a ploy created by "Big Oil"? Or is it to get people to actually think about the "blood" of their engine actually being checked and maintained?

How long does it really take for an oil filter to get "clogged" where most if the oil is bypassing the filter?

Which oil filter is really the "best" at what it is designed to do?

There ya go DOC. Some forum research you can maybe find out and educate us! Maybe being a chemist you already know? Would love to hear what you find out.

[DOCTORBILL]

The questions you asked would require a rather expensive experiment to find
the answers to!

Imagine how you would determine what you asked?

The 3,000 mile Oil Change?

When does the filter get plugged

Which Oil works "best"?

A question of my own - is "STP" worth using?

Don't you suppose that you would have to have fifty or sixty identical engines
running exactly the same load and temp to compare maybe 10 different oils?

All run identically for the equivalent of maybe 25,000 miles - in an enclosed, Laboratory environment?

To do any experiment correctly, you need to run "controls" that don't
have the variable in them. I don't know what THAT would be - maybe just
'generic' oil w/o any additives whatsoever. (?)

Then tear the engines down and look for wear with micrometers?

Maybe automotive manufacturers do that, but I truly doubt it.

So, you have to have some big trucking firm or auto rental firm agree to run
your oil and then report back in five years what happened.

Those kind of answers would be more "statistical" than truly scientific.

Someone (who?) would have to get several trucking lines and or Auto Rental
firms to use several different oils and pay for the study just to answer, "Who's
oil is the best"? Who would pay for that? Ah! The U.S. Government! Tax money!
Probably a Democrat project. Liberal Democrat.... Jimmy Carter?

By then, everyone would have changed the various oils' formulations....

I just don't believe that there is any truly scientific evidence as to
who's oil works best.

How can there be when everything changes from year to year!?

As to the oil filter clogging time - that would be easy - just put an oil pressure
gauge in the appropriate part of the oil line and you would see the back
pressure rising as it plugs up.

As to the 3,000 mile oil change - I go by that as closely as possible just
like I "don't run with sissors, don't drive drunk, don't spit into the wind, don't
poke the Mask of the old Lone Ranger, don't tug on Superman's Cape and you
don't mess around with Jim!" (Jim Croce's song).

Maybe you should be a true scientist and if you have two identical new cars, why - just
change the oil in one every 3k miles and the other one every 12k miles....

After several years , you might see the answer.

Oil + Filter ----> cost $15 at most. New Engine -----> cost? Forget about it!

Me? I'll play it safe.... I won't tug on Superman's Cape!

I reserve my stupid moves for other things - like the Stock Market!

And the dumb things I say to my wife that peroidically make her mad at me.

DoctorBill

Conclusion - pick a modus operandi and stick with it!

[Irk]

This might interest you guys

http://oilstudy.spacebears.com

This garage did an oil longevity test using Mobil 1 synthetic and Amsoil Synthetic in a 2002 Camaro. They got an oil analysis every 1000 miles. They said the Mobil 1 lasted 18,000 miles and the Amsoil lasted 14,000 miles.

[horse482]

With a synthetic oil still requires that you change the oil filter every 3 to 5 thousand miles, and as said above you should have oil analisys done when you change the filter to make sure that the oil is not starting to break down.

[Crvett69]

on a metro when its time for a tune up or a oil change just put a new jdm motor in it

LOL J/K

[DOCTORBILL]

In the analysis results in the link

http://oilstudy.spacebears.com/

They report various metals being in the oil when analysed.

Could one tell which part of the engine is wearing by the amount of certain
metals in the oil.

Iron would be in most all of the parts.

Were would that copper be coming from? And Molybdenum?

How about Boron? Silicon?

Where the Hell is that Aluminum coming from!?

It would be nice to have a metal composition of the Rings, Cylinder walls,
Rod Bearings, Crankshaft bearings, and maybe the valves.

Are rings made of something different than cylinder walls?

Are there any metallo-Organics in Gasoline that could leave a residue?

The TBN values are antiacids? I wonder what....amines? Nitrogen Heterocycles.

What are in the "Insolubles"? Carbon particles? Metal particles?

I would like to see at least one analysis of the insolubles just for grins....

Now this is worth looking at! Not any of, "In my opinion..." crap.

As Mr. Spock used to say. "Fascinating!"

DoctorBill

[Irk]

I'm pretty sure Molybdenum is added to some oil as an anti-wear additive. Aren't some engine blocks aluminum thats probably where the Aluminum is coming from. I wish that website would have done a longevity test with Walmart Supertech Synthetic then we could finally see if it matches up to Mobil 1 or Amsoil. Too bad they stopped doing it.