What do you think about torture?

[Ian Szgatti]

Do you get easily disturbed by the idea of torture to obtain information on your chances of survival?

[03cavPA]

It depends. Ask the families of the people who got their heads sawed off with a dull knife how they feel about it.

It's a tough call. If we engage in torture, we're no better than our adversaries, but we may not accomplish much if we don't.

Good question. Does the end justify the means?

[Ian Szgatti]

Originally Posted by 03cavPA

It depends. Ask the families of the people who got their heads sawed off with a dull knife how they feel about it.

It's a tough call. If we engage in torture, we're no better than our adversaries, but we may not accomplish much if we don't.

Good question. Does the end justify the means?

If the end is your own life... and somebody knows it's going to end, would you die in the name of your own virtues against violence? Eventually we would loose and then, when our culture and existance is reduced to ashes, those perpetrators would remember us merely as the one's who brought a knife to a gun fight.
I think we feel too guilty about our tactics. when they should be put into rational context. We don't want to do this, but we can't let go of our main goal. first, survival. Second, to try to bring the world up to speed by implementing a universal system based on fundemental freedoms. Freedoms that allow every individual the chance to do whatever they want, so long as it doesn't violate any of our simple laws. That's a sweet idea if you ask me. To me, the end completely justifies the means. One day, far in the future, our ancestors might look back on these barbaric times and shudder at the thought when there was still so much turmoil in our evolving global society.

[TexasF355F1]

Torture has always been a part of society. This is a difficult question to answer. I think to a degree it is necessary. As far as beating goes, it depends on who it is exactly, but I think that's the last ditch measure. I think sleep deprivation, having any kind of music up loud for hours and hours, and things of that nature are more than acceptable. Honestly, I could give a rats ass less though.

Ask our own former soldier POW's what happened to them. I bet physical pain would be a word they used to describe it. If they do it, then we should too. Our media needs to quit printing every little thing they get their dirty hands on. And our government needs to do a better job of keeping all information within the confines of a few people that can be trusted.

opcorn:

[Ian Szgatti]

Originally Posted by TexasF355F1

opcorn:

agreed... wonderful avatar by the way

[thrasher]

Originally Posted by TexasF355F1

If they do it, then we should too

opcorn:

Not to be an ass, but I think that's a terrible attitude. Violence begets violence, and until we are actually man/woman enough to step up and accept that, we cannot expect our enemies/foes to behavior in a manner different than we do. We torture them, they torture us, we shoot missiles, they send suicude bombers...it's an endless cycle. And violence is the root cause of it all, on both sides of the table.

[Toksin]

Originally Posted by TexasF355F1

Torture has always been a part of society. This is a difficult question to answer. I think to a degree it is necessary. As far as beating goes, it depends on who it is exactly, but I think that's the last ditch measure. I think sleep deprivation, having any kind of music up loud for hours and hours, and things of that nature are more than acceptable. Honestly, I could give a rats ass less though.

Ask our own former soldier POW's what happened to them. I bet physical pain would be a word they used to describe it. If they do it, then we should too. Our media needs to quit printing every little thing they get their dirty hands on. And our government needs to do a better job of keeping all information within the confines of a few people that can be trusted.

opcorn:

It's a vicious cycle though, because say if the US tortures Iraqi prisoners, it means the gloves are off, and their own troops are open to the same sort of treatment should they be captured.

[Broke_as_****]

Originally Posted by Toksin

It's a vicious cycle though, because say if the US tortures Iraqi prisoners, it means the gloves are off, and their own troops are open to the same sort of treatment should they be captured.

Where have you been? Soldiers of the US and other countries have routinely been tortured for decades regardless of whatever position said countries have had on the matter.

There is only a few countries that follow the Geneva Conventions to any degree. The rest of the world tends to laugh at that particular piece of parchment while they slow roast your nuts.

[Ian Szgatti]

Originally Posted by Broke_as_****

There is only a few countries that follow the Geneva Conventions to any degree. The rest of the world tends to laugh at that particular piece of parchment while they slow roast your nuts.

Which is why I dont understand when i hear play claim that violence begets violence. Nothing wrong with that opinion, I suppose we should expect that it is a terrifying idea.

Tonight I confronted my fiances' brother who is staying with us. Long story, but he is making some pretty stupid life choices... His sister found a gold chain belonging to my 11 year old son in his coat pocket...
When I got at him, at first asking him what the hell he was thinking, he ended up saying F*&^ you.
I jumped on him and smashed him a few times and he threatened to call the police. He didnt, and all settled and we're fine. Now for as macho as i might be on the whole torture idea, I got thinking after about this thread and thought... my bro-in-law is a real piece of dirt to steal from a child, yet somehow I felt bad for the idiot after pounding on his head.
Thats kinda how I know that I dont believe in torture out of some sickness... it would not be a very nice duty, but it HAS to be done. Personally, I wouldnt want the job.

[03cavPA]

Originally Posted by Ian Szgatti

Now for as macho as i might be on the whole torture idea, I got thinking after about this thread and thought... my bro-in-law is a real piece of dirt to steal from a child, yet somehow I felt bad for the idiot after pounding on his head.

Screw that. He deserved it.

Originally Posted by Toksin

It's a vicious cycle though, because say if the US tortures Iraqi prisoners, it means the gloves are off, and their own troops are open to the same sort of treatment should they be captured.

That's a very nice concept, but reality says differently. The other side (whoever that is) isn't going to play nice just because we decide to. The last time I checked, however, we weren't disseminating videos of prisoners having their heads hacked off all over the internet. Yes, I mention that again because that's as real as it gets.

Does it justify coming down to that level? I don't know. We haven't gone there yet. Perhaps if we did, they'd pay a bit more attention to us, good or bad. It would probably create a lot more martyrs. The line between chaos and civilization is only a few millimeters thick, if that.

[drunken monkey]

i don't see the beheadings and their videos as being torture.
so while you are right in that the US doesn't behead people and post videos of it online, you do hide people in other countries so that they can be tortured out of sight.
in my opinion, this and what it represents, is more frightening than killing someone on film and showing people.

[03cavPA]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

i don't see the beheadings and their videos as being torture.
so while you are right in that the US doesn't behead people and post videos of it online, you do hide people in other countries so that they can be tortured out of sight.
in my opinion, this and what it represents, is more frightening than killing someone on film and showing people.

Do you even have a clue what I'm talking about here? I'm not talking about a clean guillotine-style beheading. I'm talking about sawing somebody's damn head off with a big knife and then putting the video out there. One is over in a flash, the other takes time.

I'm not going to deny that torture happens on both sides. I suppose it's all a matter of degree by which each culture views certain acts as brutality, if we want to get academic about it.

Ian, my apologies if this is going off-thread.

[drunken monkey]

yes, i know what you are talking about but

i) the beheadings were a prolonged killing (ignoring claims that the people were dead before the act) in order to cause fear and terror in people who will end up seeing the videos. They were always going to die. Theirs was a prolonged exectution and while it is a nasty way to die, it isn't torture. Sure there was probably torture involved before the eventually killing but the act itself was well, in media terms, a publicity stunt.

ii) The torture of prisoners for information is a totally different kettle of fish. It might not look as bad/gruesome/horrific but having raw dental nerves prodded or small sharp things shot up your fingernail beds is something that will stay with you for the hours and days and weeks afterwards. Part of torture is about inducing a psychological effect through physical means. Refering back to the beheading. The aim was not to affect the victim; it's more like the effect is for the Western viewer and the victim just so happened to be the one used to gain that effect.

going back to my example of torture.
if length of time is the determinant factor of what is worse, than well, i think the hours/days/weeks of torture that can go on to get the psychological effect you want from modern torture techniques and watching the decline of the mental state of victims is much worse than a prolonged execution.

[03cavPA]

I can see that point, thanks for bringing me back on topic. Sorry, Ian.

Damn, I need to switch to decaf.

[Toksin]

I wasn't saying anything about US soldiers not being tortured, I'm aware that they are, but at least the insurgents aren't lying about what they're doing.