Random thoughts on alternative sources and renewable energy

[clawhammer]

Over the past few weeks I've watched several shows on Alternative sources and renewable energy on TV, mostly the discovery channel as well as reading articles on the subject. I have some random observations and thoughts on the whole subject. Here they are:

- With oil hitting $78 a barrel in trading, the most immediate thing we can do is reduce usage. Europeans were able to do this in the past 4 years, however, our consumption has only gone up, and it's still increasing at a rather rapid pace.

- We can conserve oil by buying a smaller car. That means buying a minivan instead of a full-size SUV. A Chevy Tahoe gets 21 highway mpg, while an Odyssey gets 28. Instead of buying a Chevy Impala which gets 27 highway mpg, buy a Camry Hybrid which gets 38 mpg.

- Another way of conserving would be driving slower. You don't need to go WOT between stop lights. Drive the speed limit instead of going 20 over. It will also save you from a ticket or two. Other conservation methods would include obviously driving less and carpooling.

- One of the things which I beleive, yet nobody will ever be able to prove is that the profit from oil indirectly goes to support terrorists. Let's not turn this into a political discussion, it's simply my beleif. So, we'll need to find alternative sources of energy.

- A source of energy which GM and Ford are trying to popularize is Ethanol. I actually beleive that this is a very good thing. I realize that there is less energy in a gallon of ethanol than in a gallon of gasoline, and that right now we wouldn't be able to grow enough corn, but technology can help us. I read about this company which was able to turn agricultural waste into ethanol, instead of the corn itself. I also beleive that eventually we'll be able to produce it more efficiently. At the present time it may not seem like the best solution, but let's not say no to it so fast.

- Honda and Toyota seemed to be more interested in Hybrids. This is an excellent way of conserving fuel. The same is true as with ethanol, it may not make sense to get a hybrid in every case, but we've only opened the door so far. We haven't even begun utilizing Li-ion batteries in cars yet. There is a company that will supposedly come out with a kit for the Hybrid which will replace the batteries to Li-ion, and will increase the mileage to 100 mpg!!! Then there is nano-technology, using which a capacitor can hold a charge like a battery, but it charges much faster than a battery and will pretty much last forever. Imagine the possiblities!

- The electric car seems like a great idea to me. The average Californian's commute is 27 miles a day. I couldn't imagine that another state would have a larger average. For going back and forth to work having an electric car with a range of 100, or 200 miles would be excellent. Using the nano-technology mentioned above, we could even solve the problem of going for long trips.

- Biodiesels would be another great example of alternative fuel. It can come from many sources and when produced on a large enough scale, it should be much cheaper then diesel, especially if the source is used cooking oil.

- Hydrogen is the last source I can think of at the moment. Honestly, it seems a little bit too complicated to me, especially building the distribution network for the hydrogen. But, I'm open to the idea of hydrogen.

- I would actually like to see all the sources above used instead of just one, like we did today. This would cause some serious competition, which would only drive the prices down.

- If we start using more electricity to power our things, we'll need to find renewable sources for that too, instead of oil and coal.

- Nuclear power seems a bit too dangerous to me. Look at what happaned in Chernobyl. I think we can do better.

- Solar panels are great, but the problem with that is that they're too expensive at the moment. I think China will have to start using them on a large scale in order to bring the cost of it down. There's no reason why our homes shouldn't use solar panels instead of shingles.

- We should utilize wind farms a lot more. We even found a way to put them out in the sea, I don't see a reason why we shouldn't spread these out all over the oceans.

I hope I didn't come across as a tree hugger, because I'm not one. I acutally care a lot more about the size of my wallet than about the environment, but a byproduct of all this alternative and renewable energy would be cleaner air and greener environment. It seems like a win-win situation for everyone.

[Chiquae07]

nice write up. i still say, if its possible, make it so you can create energy from sound. then and only then will energy be free.

i do agree on the whole battery thing though. if we could get people in cali alone to switch from gas cars to electric, then the price of gas would drop greatly. i know that chicago is planning on putting electric busses in with normal gas busses soon and see how the community reacts to them. if its a win, then electric cars won't be out of the picture soon.

[302exploder]

i remeber hearing somewhere (might have been here) about BMW experimenting with an internal combustion engine very similar to regualr gasoline engines but it runs on hydrogen instead. when hydrogen and oxygen combine to make water, there is a bit of an explosion. seems like it could work, but im not sure if there is enough oxygen in the air for this to work or if pure oxygen is needed. there is also the problem of hydrogen liking to explode

[Underground_Killah]

I've thought alot about this topic and though it would be hard to ween the american population from gasoline or huge suv's, it would be a great idea. I, don't feel comfortable driving a smaller car like a prius or a echo because of the simple fact that if my echo hit a ford excursion.... i'm dead and they have a 20 dollar dent. And believe me, in the south... there's plenty of HUGE vehicles on the road.
I like the idea of ethanol and hybrid... Even though i like driving fast, i try to keep my rpm's under 2 while driving (2.5 tops) unless i hit the interstate, then it goes to 3 to keep up.

But when gas is rumored to hit 5 dollars a gallon, when will people realize that it's our own faults we've allowed gas to get this high? i was at the gas station today (my car's favorite hang out spot) and noticed the guy beside me with a excursion.... almost 200 dollars in gas. IN GAS!

Let's face it, there are some people who make uber money and don't care about gas prices, but they are the minority. if every hard working person stopped buying gas for one day, the market would explode. I agree that we should impliment plenty of ways to have the cars run, why stop with a hybrid? why not impliment hybrid/hydrogen? or ethanol/hybrid? (since hybrids still run on gas.... why not use ethanol?) and imagine the boost it'll give our farmers in the states for production of corn? we would be the best! i mean cmon have you heard of corn that is better than the states?

Just my 2cents but it's still great that i'm not the only one here a bit worried about the future.

[Musashi3000GT]

Tree hugger!

We went through an oil crisis in the 70s and everyone got dooped into getting rid of the big bad muscle cars and getting shitty little econoboxes like the gremlim and the 510. (altough a built 510 is a thing of beauty)
but it didnt solve shit 40 years ago and we ended up loosing iconic cars and until now we are seeing them be revivied, I dont want to see that ame shit happen again ya know.

I think Americans just lack the care or socialistic ideals of European nations.......in other words we arent fucking hippies, what we are is barberic and so we have to remain barberic and conquer some other nation and take thier oil supply. Now the middle east is a problem cause till know its been a futile struggle and too many casualties, too many nose pickers, and face it the middle eastern people are determined and aggresive fighters.
No, we need to strike that pussy Chaves and take over Venezuela and take all thier oil for our own.

worst case scenario: the world runs out of fuel, war ensues and the planet is left in the aftermath of it all, I honestly wouldnt mind, I liked Mad Max and I could tottaly live in that world.

[Underground_Killah]

Originally Posted by Musashi3000GT

Tree hugger!

We went through an oil crisis in the 70s and everyone got dooped into getting rid of the big bad muscle cars and getting shitty little econoboxes like the gremlim and the 510. (altough a built 510 is a thing of beauty)
but it didnt solve shit 40 years ago and we ended up loosing iconic cars and until now we are seeing them be revivied, I dont want to see that ame shit happen again ya know.

I think Americans just lack the care or socialistic ideals of European nations.......in other words we arent fucking hippies, what we are is barberic and so we have to remain barberic and conquer some other nation and take thier oil supply. Now the middle east is a problem cause till know its been a futile struggle and too many casualties, too many nose pickers, and face it the middle eastern people are determined and aggresive fighters.
No, we need to strike that pussy Chaves and take over Venezuela and take all thier oil for our own.

worst case scenario: the world runs out of fuel, war ensues and the planet is left in the aftermath of it all, I honestly wouldnt mind, I liked Mad Max and I could tottaly live in that world.

oh mushsashi.....

Tree hugger or not, when that post apoctaliptic (sp?) world comes, you'd tottally live in it, until you walked out to your GTO and went "oh shit... i can't drive my GTO!?!?!!?!? NOOOOOO!!!!"

but i would suggest smart bombing the middle east and especially n.korea. Seriously, those f'rs have it coming testing bombs that supposedly can reach the US... i'd take that as a serious "we're giving you pre warning" fire... even if it only hit the ocean.

either that or my buddy in the airforce has knowledge of some insane weapondry in the works that would solve their problem and keep the oil safe.

I hate how gas is rising just like everyone else, but you have to realize, not every person with one child needs a suv. my parents drove me around in a crown victoria... and i turned out just fine.

[TheStang00]

musashis post is my favorite. musashi FTW!!

i have actually recently done research projects on both ethanol and hydrogen power. ethanol is practicle from the research ive done. critics will say that it requires more energy to make ethanol than it produces, but this is using out dated technology. cellulosic technology is much more efficient and makes ethanol profitable and practical. with this technology they can also use the corn stalks, and other woody parts of the plants. really i think that there is very good chance that enough corn is already grown with this type of technology utilized. tons and tons of corn are bought by the federal government every year because of the price floor on corn, much of it is just dumped into the ocean. using ethanol would allow the government to stop buying the corn, saving them money. also the farmers would benefit a great deal from ethanol, who knows the increased demand for corn might even bring the price of the crop off of the price floor.

hydrogen power in my opinion is the way of the future. period. it is extremely highly efficient. the main issues with it right now are cost and storage. scientists are researching solutions right now and these issues will be solved. we are not there yet but this technology is the answer IMO. the best gasoline engines are about 23% efficient as far as creating power goes, diesel is about 40%. hydrogen fuel in an internal combustion engine is 60%. in other words, more power/fuel milage. hydrogen fuel cells that are used to power electric motors are even more efficient, and electric motors are about 90% efficient. the problem with storage with hydrogen is that it has a low energy density and mass density. with poses problems with the amount of fuel that can be stored on a car or truck, this would be somewhat unpractical because people would be filling their tanks constantly. internal combustion hydrogen engines are quite easy to make btw, normal gasoline engines will work just fine. some lubricating additive might be needed though.

hydrogen car


the other thing that i find interesting is the 6 stroke engine.

[Elk]

Hydrogen is never going to be anything more then a pipedream because all the Hydrogen is doing is acting as an inefficient battery.

Electricity is used to make Hydrogen then more electricity has to be used to compress it to 10,000 PSI then the Hydrogen has to be transported by truck to a gas station it is then put in a fuel-cell vehicle where it is turned back into electricity to run car.

Add to that the lack of Hydrogen infrastructure, the fact that a lot of people are not going to want a car with compressed explosive gas in it and improvements in battery technology you quickly realize that normal electric cars are going to make Hydrogen cars obsolete before they even go into production.

Ethanol, biodiesel and electric cars are the future.

Originally Posted by clawhammer

Instead of buying a Chevy Impala which gets 27 highway mpg, buy a Camry Hybrid which gets 38 mpg.

The base version of the Impala with the 3.5L V6 get 31 mpg and GM setup some of them to run on E85. So if you live near a gas station with an E85 pump you would actually use less oil with the Impala.

[clawhammer]

Originally Posted by Elk

The base version of the Impala with the 3.5L V6 get 31 mpg and GM setup some of them to run on E85. So if you live near a gas station with an E85 pump you would actually use less oil with the Impala.

You do know that gas mileage goes down quite a bit with E85? The only thing you might be using less of is crude oil, which a lot of comes from the middle east.

[TheStang00]

Originally Posted by Elk

Hydrogen is never going to be anything more then a pipedream because all the Hydrogen is doing is acting as an inefficient battery.

Electricity is used to make Hydrogen then more electricity has to be used to compress it to 10,000 PSI then the Hydrogen has to be transported by truck to a gas station it is then put in a fuel-cell vehicle where it is turned back into electricity to run car.

Add to that the lack of Hydrogen infrastructure, the fact that a lot of people are not going to want a car with compressed explosive gas in it and improvements in battery technology you quickly realize that normal electric cars are going to make Hydrogen cars obsolete before they even go into production.

Ethanol, biodiesel and electric cars are the future.

dont be a tool. how about you do something called research, instead of listening to some dumbass columnist you probably read.

[CassiesMan]

Corn belongs on the dinner plate, not in the gas tank.

Give me oil, or give me death.

[Elk]

Originally Posted by clawhammer

You do know that gas mileage goes down quite a bit with E85? The only thing you might be using less of is crude oil, which a lot of comes from the middle east.

The Impala does use more fuel when running on E85, but it still burns less oil then the Camry Hybrid which is what I thought this thread was about.

Originally Posted by TheStang00

dont be a tool. how about you do something called research, instead of listening to some dumbass columnist you probably read.

I have researched it and Hydrogen isn’t going to work. I figured out that it wasn’t going to work by reading pro-hydrogen stuff. When I started looking hard at things it quickly became clear to me that it’s not going to work.

And one of the fun facts I learned about Hydrogen while researching it is at 10,000 PSI Hydrogen becomes a liquid that has to be kept cool or it will explode. It’s like driving a round with a heat activated bomb in your car.

[TheStang00]

Originally Posted by Elk

I have researched it and Hydrogen isn’t going to work. I figured out that it wasn’t going to work by reading pro-hydrogen stuff. When I started looking hard at things it quickly became clear to me that it’s not going to work.

And one of the fun facts I learned about Hydrogen while researching it is at 10,000 PSI Hydrogen becomes a liquid that has to be kept cool or it will explode. It’s like driving a round with a heat activated bomb in your car.

since your a scientist working on it and whatnot you have all that expertise...

when something is compressed into a liquid, it stays cool naturally, thats the only way it can compress. u ever felt compressed CO2? its cold as shit. like i said in my first post, storage issues do represent problems, R&D is underway as we speak and eventually something will come along. did u even read that post?

[Elk]

Originally Posted by TheStang00

since your a scientist working on it and whatnot you have all that expertise...

Hey if you have some facts to back up your Hydrogen argument posts away. Tell me how are Hydrogen cars going to be better then battery powered cars when it comes to economics, performance and practicality?

Originally Posted by TheStang

when something is compressed into a liquid, it stays cool naturally, thats the only way it can compress. u ever felt compressed CO2? its cold as shit. like i said in my first post, storage issues do represent problems, R&D is underway as we speak and eventually something will come along. did u even read that post?

I read your post and you talked about storage problems, but didn’t get into specifics. Liquefied gas doesn’t stay cold, it remains stable as long as it’s kept within a temperature range. If it stayed cold by it’s self the space shuttle’s fuel tanks wouldn’t be covered in insulation.

CO2 isn’t cold, it gets cold when it’s decompressed.

[TheStang00]

Originally Posted by Elk

Hey if you have some facts to back up your Hydrogen argument posts away. Tell me how are Hydrogen cars going to be better then battery powered cars when it comes to economics, performance and practicality?

electric cars do hold promise but i have a feeling americans in particular arent going to want to go away from internal combustion. and in that case, no other fuel we have is more efficient and cleaner than hydrogen. i did get into the specifics of the storage problems some, energy density, normal density. thats pretty specific. i could go deeper into depth but that requires me to get more into chemistry and physics. because thats where the problem lies, chemistry.

another thing, one of the most effective ways to power the electric cars your talking about is a hydrogen fuel cell, the main problem with that right now is cost.... its very expensive, mass production would help but it would still cost too much.