Detroit is out of ideas

[clawhammer]

Taken from http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...ra/P123244.asp



The tinge of desperation hanging in the air over Detroit over the past few months has now given way to a dark sky teeming with thunder, lightning and swirling black clouds of doom. Enviously eyeing General Motors' (GM, news, msgs) wildly successful (at least for the short term) "Employee Pricing for Everyone" sales promotion program, DaimlerChrysler (DCX, news, msgs) and Ford (F, news, msgs) felt they had no other choice but to follow the world's biggest automaker -- right off the cliff into Price War Hell.

As if skeptical American car- and truck-buying consumers needed any more evidence that considering anything "American" (other than a few laudable exceptions) was useful only if you were in search of "the deal" -- this latest lemming-like embarrassment from Detroit has solidified consumer mindsets for good.


The most compelling evidence that Detroit has gone absolutely stark-raving mad? The Chrysler Group's pathetic nostalgia trip in bringing back Lee Iacocca to push their "employee pricing" discount program. In a market that couldn't care less about anything having to do with "Detroit" -- how could anyone possibly rationalize that dredging up a guy whose time had officially passed easily 10 years ago would have consumers waxing nostalgic about Detroit's "good old days?" This from Chrysler, a car company that had at least a modicum of momentum going with their 300/300C and whose executives love reminding the media every chance they get that they're smarter than the folks down at GM and Ford -- and that only they are the ones who well and truly have their stuff together in this town.

Credibility down the tubes
Well, apparently, they've run out of talent in Auburn Hills, because this newest venture into Geezer Marketing with a dollop of washed-up Seinfeld refugee thrown in for good measure (Jason Alexander utters the hackneyed phrase, "If you can find a better car, buy it") is proof positive that the Chrysler Group is no better than the rest of 'em and that left to their own devices, they won't hesitate to take the whole sordid business of commodity automotive marketing down a few more notches if it will "break through the clutter."

There's that magic marketing/advertising catch-all phrase again. Chrysler executives felt that they had to "break through the clutter" in order to bring attention to their "employee discount" program. My question to them is: When the clutter you're attempting to break through is bull to begin with, how do you expect to make shine-ola out of it? Or, in other words, multiple negatives will never equal a positive, no matter how you formulate it.

Enough about Chrysler -- they will tell everybody who will listen that their program is smarter and wildly successful, but for my money, it's just one more reason for the consumers "out there" in the real world to dismiss Detroit as shameless hucksters who push hype and marketing sizzle instead of products that people actually want.


"If you can find a better car, buy it" happens to encapsulate everything wrong with Detroit in its current guise. American consumers have been finding better cars from non-Detroit car companies for the last two decades and buying them in droves. And now that Detroit is actually building some pretty damn good products, they can't for the life of them figure out why consumers don't believe them. And why should they? They're now conditioned to wait a little longer for the best possible deal, instead of taking note of the improved quality ratings and positive reviews of the new products coming from Detroit. In other words, consumers are looking at Detroit products for all of the wrong reasons -- while the "new and improved" message is getting lost in the shuffle.

In a business that revolves around the integrity of the product, Detroit automakers have successfully squandered what little shred of credibility they had left and their last real opportunity to convince consumers that they finally have the products worthy of serious consideration -- because they just couldn't contain themselves and take the long-term view. Instead, they strapped their 30-day sales goggles on, disengaged their brains and in the process rendered anything from a Detroit car company as a commodity once and for all -- one only to be considered if it's cheap enough.

What do they do for an encore?
So, here we are -- when you give employee pricing to everyone, what's next? GM insists that after this big, final blowout sales push they can calmly "flip a switch" and show up in the fall with "value pricing" on their hot, new 2006 models and they will be back on the road to momentum and profitability. As Coach Lee Corso says, "Not so fast, my friend." The bottom line for GM is that they're fighting their own recent history as "America's Discount Auto Company.”

In spite of a slew of very desirable products on the way from GM, there will be no flipping a switch to convince consumers that GM's vehicles are worthy of consideration on their own. GM has buried itself in a discount box. As a matter of fact, GM has now become America's "Big Box" Automotive Retailer. No matter how good their new products will be or how good the reviews are, there are legions of consumers out there who will only look at a GM product as a commodity to be procured with the best possible deal. And after five years of discount retailing, it will take years, not quarters, but years for GM to shed that image.

As for Ford and Chrysler, following GM into the abyss was more about ego than anything else. Detroit automakers can't stand to see their competitors being successful -- it drives them crazy and forces them to do monumentally stupid things. GM and Chrysler can't stand to see the Mustang being a hit, so now they want in to that segment, even though it will be 2008 before they're ready with their "me-too" entries. And GM and Ford can't stand to see Chrysler having a hit with their rear-wheel-drive 300/300C, so now they're investigating "in-your-face" designs of their own. And now, here we have Chrysler and Ford, eyeing GM's monster month of June and wanting in on the action, even though it requires suspension of all rational thought.

For Ford, it's yet another case of lacking a big marketing idea of their own, so they tend to go whichever way the market leads them - no big surprise here. For Chrysler, they actually believe in their hearts that they're smarter than everyone else -- their potent brew of German-American Kool-Aid is apparently that good. So what do they do? They dredge up a prehistoric automotive icon who will signal to everyone once and for all that Detroit is out of touch, out of time -- and officially out of ideas. Nice.



It's sad but true... That's how I feel about it. The worst part is that they're going to go to congress and beg them to save their butts. That will be bad for the consumer.

[TheStang00]

what the hell is the point of this? this is retarded. and ford lacking big marketing ideas... hmm well i guess someone didnt think about the new mustangs. and rediculousnumber of trucks they sell. and american have been pretty reliable since the ealry 90's. its not that new, the lemon law days are long since passed my friend

[-The Stig-]

I agree with the article... the domestic company's need to step their game up a bit.

They went too long being mediocre, and let the Import cars pass them in design and quality. Now, they're coming back but people are still a tad skeptical.

GM would of had a large share of the market now had it not cancelled out his rear-drive platforms in '96 (Impalla/Caprice) and in '02 (Camaro/Firebird).

Sure they said it'd cost too much to make the F-body comply to the new safety regulations. Who knows if that's true, maybe that was their scapegoat to cancel a car that was out sold by the V6 Mustang.

Owning a F-body, I can tell you why people would probably prefer the Mustang. Visability while driving the Camaro is kinda a pain in the ass, lots of blind spots. And entering and exiting the vehicle, it's hard to look cool while getting out of the car while you're fighting to get out. In those respects... yes the Mustang is much better and civil.

But the F-Body was the superior performance car just about every year it was produced in comparison to the Mustang.

Hopefully, with this new success of the Retro-Stang GM will get it's act together and build us a new Camaro. Chrysler is also getting on the bandwagon and probably going to build a new Challenger off of the 300c/Magnum/Charger platforms.

Ahh, all these new V8 rear drive 2 door coupes being made. It's 1964 all over again with the birth of the muscle car.

In the next few years we'll have a slew of new choices to choose from:

Ford Retro-Stang
Dodge Retro-Challenger
Chevy Retro-Camaro
Pontiac Borrowed Design-GTO

Fun times are coming... I hope.

[ghostx]

I do agree with one thing. Chrysler and Ford should have never followed GM's path to destruction. I saw it coming, but I hoped to be wrong. Well, I wonder how the guys at Toyota and Honda are going to react. Hopefully they have enough sense to just wait this employee discount thing out.

[CassiesMan]

Originally Posted by clawhammer

The worst part is that they're going to go to congress and beg them to save their butts. That will be bad for the consumer.

And that, my friends, is why a Z06 is cheaper than an ///M3.

Anyways, its a pretty much known fact that all the American auto companies copy each other (regarding the portion speaking about the Mustang, so now GM/Chrysler are brining out their own models)...I mean, wasn't the first Camaro deisgned, built, and market less than 11 months after the first Mustang? Thats pretty damn impressive.

I know alot of people who wont buy a Dodge/Chrysler product becuase they believe that their upper management some convinced the guys at Benz to spend more time on the Dodge/Chrysler cars than their own. In result, yeah Dodge and Chrysler have become nice cars, but Benz has gone down hill.

I'm not gonna say anything about GM, I have my feelings regarding GM products, and they won't be changing anytime soon.

Ford...wow. Well, I'll be honest. I dislike Ford to the point of almost hating them (oddly enough my first real introduction to the automotive world was a report on the Ford Motor Company's evolution). I feel they have ruined respectable car brands (Mazda and Volvo), and ran out of good ideas back in 1980...however, oddly enough again, the only two Domestic cars I'd even consider purchasing at this time are both Fords (kinda...an 03 S/C Cobra with a Keene Bell SC, or a 03 Saleen).

TheStang00....I think your missing the point. There is nothing new about the new Mustang. None whatsoever...its the car that should have been released in 99, not 04. All it is is a retro body design, something Dodge had been doing (Prowler and PT Cruiser, anyone?). And IMHO, if I wanted a car that looked like an early Mustang with a more modern motor....I'd buy an old Mustang and put a new motor in it. And yes, Domestics have been becoming more reliable since the early 90s...But both Asian and Euro imports HAVE BEEN reliable since before the 90s.

And with the way gas prices are going, I feel (and oh so gladly do I feel) that the age of the SUV and Truck is comming to an end. I was talking to a friend who owns a few Ford dealerships here in Texas, and even he told me that at his dealerships, sales of trucks (Including SUVs, not just those stupid pickups) has been declining. And oh so gladly have I noticed fewer and fewer SUVs on the road.

I agree with alot of what this article is saying. There isn't anything really special comming out of the domestic markets at all. The new Mustang? Its just a retro body design that finally has a powerfull motor. The Cobalt SS? GM did what many serious Sunfire/Cavy tuners have already been doing, and add a Supercharger to a four banger. The Dodge Charger? An abomination of the only clasic car I would want to own. I mean, really. Take a step back, and look at what kind of cars that the Domestic Manufacturers are offering...and tell me whats so new or special or revolutionary about them. And then, before you tell me...find out how many of them came from ideas already put out by the European and Asian manufacturers that said Domestic brands own...or are owned by.

[-Josh-]

Originally Posted by RedNeck383

I agree with the article... the domestic company's need to step their game up a bit.

Hopefully, with this new success of the Retro-Stang GM will get it's act together and build us a new Camaro. Chrysler is also getting on the bandwagon and probably going to build a new Challenger off of the 300c/Magnum/Charger platforms.

Ahh, all these new V8 rear drive 2 door coupes being made. It's 1964 all over again with the birth of the muscle car.

In the next few years we'll have a slew of new choices to choose from:

Ford Retro-Stang
Dodge Retro-Challenger
Chevy Retro-Camaro
Pontiac Borrowed Design-GTO

Fun times are coming... I hope.

Ah, an advantage to working at a GM dealership. I've talked with TWO GM reps who have confirmed the return of the Camaro in the 07-08 model years. So whoopedee doo to that, the car should have never had to make a return, and it wont be called an FBody(obviously). I do not agree entirely with that article although it makes some strong points, basically, what they're saying is that they're disappointed in the Detroit companies for losing credibility and quality, and then at the same time they're bashing on them for trying to gain it back any way they can...Also so what if there's cheesy marketing involved, you do what you gotta do to get consumers, that's the beauty of a free market. Detroit companies are not out of ideas, they're biding their time, were gonna see some damn good cars in the near future, and hopefully they wont need congress to help them out.

[clawhammer]

Originally Posted by RedNeck383

I agree with the article... the domestic company's need to step their game up a bit.

They went too long being mediocre, and let the Import cars pass them in design and quality. Now, they're coming back but people are still a tad skeptical.

GM would of had a large share of the market now had it not cancelled out his rear-drive platforms in '96 (Impalla/Caprice) and in '02 (Camaro/Firebird).

Sure they said it'd cost too much to make the F-body comply to the new safety regulations. Who knows if that's true, maybe that was their scapegoat to cancel a car that was out sold by the V6 Mustang.

Owning a F-body, I can tell you why people would probably prefer the Mustang. Visability while driving the Camaro is kinda a pain in the ass, lots of blind spots. And entering and exiting the vehicle, it's hard to look cool while getting out of the car while you're fighting to get out. In those respects... yes the Mustang is much better and civil.

But the F-Body was the superior performance car just about every year it was produced in comparison to the Mustang.

Hopefully, with this new success of the Retro-Stang GM will get it's act together and build us a new Camaro. Chrysler is also getting on the bandwagon and probably going to build a new Challenger off of the 300c/Magnum/Charger platforms.

Ahh, all these new V8 rear drive 2 door coupes being made. It's 1964 all over again with the birth of the muscle car.

In the next few years we'll have a slew of new choices to choose from:

Ford Retro-Stang
Dodge Retro-Challenger
Chevy Retro-Camaro
Pontiac Borrowed Design-GTO

Fun times are coming... I hope.

They could be set up for a MAJOR failure if they go down the retro styling route and putting V8s in everything. Look at gas prices. They're not going down anytime soon. While it is true that today's V8s get a whole lot better gas mileage than they did 30+ years ago, which is what you'd expect, domestics do not get as good of a gas mileage in just about every category as the Japanese cars do.

BTW I'm really glad that the SUV/Truck age is coming to an end. I'll finally be able to see more than 2 cars ahead of me in traffic.

[TheStang00]

Originally Posted by RedNeck383

Hopefully, with this new success of the Retro-Stang GM will get it's act together and build us a new Camaro. Chrysler is also getting on the bandwagon and probably going to build a new Challenger off of the 300c/Magnum/Charger platforms.

Ahh, all these new V8 rear drive 2 door coupes being made. It's 1964 all over again with the birth of the muscle car.

In the next few years we'll have a slew of new choices to choose from:

Ford Retro-Stang
Dodge Retro-Challenger
Chevy Retro-Camaro
Pontiac Borrowed Design-GTO

Fun times are coming... I hope.

i dont dissagree with this part of what you said for the most part, but in my opinion i think gm and dodge are completely butchering their "throwback" looks. like the new camaro concept looks more like a 350z than a camaro. also, if you were running a buisness and a competetor was doing something that worked, wouldnt you follow? it happens all the time i dont think its anything new, thats why everyone is trying to copy the retro idea that ford started. and thats why pepsi developed wild cherry pepsi.

[CassiesMan]

Originally Posted by TheStang00

i dont dissagree with this part of what you said for the most part, but in my opinion i think gm and dodge are completely butchering their "throwback" looks. like the new camaro concept looks more like a 350z than a camaro. also, if you were running a buisness and a competetor was doing something that worked, wouldnt you follow? it happens all the time i dont think its anything new, thats why everyone is trying to copy the retro idea that ford started. and thats why pepsi developed wild cherry pepsi.

Im pretty sure the PT Crusier and Prowler came out before the Retro Thunderbird and Retro Stang

[mason_RsX]

I like all the opinions here...its really interesting stuff

lemme see, where to start...incentives...its amazing how long those stupid incentives have been going on and how dumb car companies are to kep them going... In introductory business they taught not to do what some car companies are doing...if you keep low prices to drive up sales or drive out competition after a while the public gets used to it, and when u try to raise prices, everyone turns away from ur product

Camaro 07-08?...awesome! shes definately on my list of cars to look at when i graduate...

Mustang? I like the look personally, but they sorta dicked around with the mustang making inferior products for too long

as for the rebirth of muscle...I can't afford gas at the prices their at, and after bitching at my fuel miser RSX for having to fill the tank at the gas prices...I dunno if my wallet will let me purchase a V8

[TheStang00]

Originally Posted by CassiesMan

Im pretty sure the PT Crusier and Prowler came out before the Retro Thunderbird and Retro Stang

i dont know about anyone else here... but i never thought of those as retro, and the prowler came out a long time ago. i think the prowler looks more like an indy car than retro... the pt cruiser, well i just thought it was ugly, retro never crossed my mind

[CassiesMan]

Ugly yes, but retro as well. Both were based of the old designs of cars long past, with new touches.

[TheStang00]

ok i get ur point, but what spectacular things are the japanese car companies doing? you might not have thought the new mustang was spectacular, but it sure sold a hell of a lot. the japanese just got the economy car thing down as far as im concerned, and domestics have gotten on that boat recently, as you said theres the cobalt, and the focus which i think they should bring the focus RS over here for some competition for the srt-4 and cobalt ss, and theres the neons and whatnot, theres also stratuses. and i know the 2.0 zetec in the focus gets just as good gas milage as civics, the toyotas are another story but they make no power. so i really fail to see what imports are doing that domestics arent, now the lasting image problem that you say exists from previous years, well im to young to have experienced that, as long as ive been around theyve been fine. my 1990 escort was at 250k and still ran good when we got rid of it.

[CassiesMan]

Originally Posted by TheStang00

ok i get ur point, but what spectacular things are the japanese car companies doing?

For the most part, not a whole hell of a lot because they've, well, already done everything.

you might not have thought the new mustang was spectacular, but it sure sold a hell of a lot.

Honda sold a whole hell of a lot of Civics, BMW a whole hell of a lot of 325s and 330s, and Dodge a whole hell of a lot of Neons. Honda has also sold a good amount of NSXs, BMW a good number of ///Ms, and Dodge a good number of SRT-4s. What makes the Mustang being sold so special?

the japanese just got the economy car thing down as far as im concerned, and domestics have gotten on that boat recently, as you said theres the cobalt, and the focus which i think they should bring the focus RS over here for some competition for the srt-4 and cobalt ss, and theres the neons and whatnot, theres also stratuses.

And they and the Europeans also have the sports car market down to. Again, they've been making cars that compete with big V8s with smaller engines that get better miliage, and are far more efficient. The Cobalt SS is just a factory version of what many serious Cavy/Sunfire owners, such as -Jayson- have been doing for a good amount of time now, and adding a supercharger...wow, thats such a major huge advancement. Doing what aftermarket nuts have been doing already. The SRT-4 is great, especially for the price, but its no EVO or STi.

and i know the 2.0 zetec in the focus gets just as good gas milage as civics, the toyotas are another story but they make no power.

Yes, thats nice, but they still don't have the reliability reputation that Civics and Toyotas have, and when someone is shopping solely on mpg stats, I seriously doubt that power output means dirt from dogshit for them. Plus, I dare you to put a Ford Focus through half the abuse I put my Rav4 through, and see it come out just fine, running strong with over 100k miles in just around 4 years.

so i really fail to see what imports are doing that domestics arent, now the lasting image problem that you say exists from previous years, well im to young to have experienced that, as long as ive been around theyve been fine. my 1990 escort was at 250k and still ran good when we got rid of it.

Thats the thing...they aren't doing anything new at all. Imports (both European and Asian) are doing today what they have been doing for a good long time now, making good, reliable, long running, comfortable, good miliage, and fun to drive cars. And what this article, and I, am saying is that Detroit is just now starting to get there, and doing a marginally decent job...but the article, and I, fear it is too little to late.

On a side note, I just saw a picture of the 2007 Camaro concept. I now officialy support state sponsored genocide of GMs entire design department.

[TheStang00]

Originally Posted by CassiesMan

On a side note, I just saw a picture of the 2007 Camaro concept. I now officialy support state sponsored genocide of GMs entire design department.

amen to that.

while i can see where your coming from, i still have my own ideas, so we'll just leave it at that. as far as abuse, that escort i had... you cannot possibly have any idea of the hell it went through, from me and my brother as our first car for each of us. ramping parking blocks... 14k old oil... driving down sidewalks, going through medians at 70mph... ramming into massive snow drifts... the list goes on. but you are right on one part, domestic reliability ratings have been improving in recent years, and now domestics are as a whole rated higher in reliability that european cars.