synthetic or non

[skatendestroy]

Newb question

I have a 109K should i use sythetic or non and what brandwould you recomend for a 95 neon sohcI keep getting mixed results from people saying that high millege motors need a thick oil to help compensate for piston wear and then others saying synthetic because it prevents further wear better

[das2123]

If you have no oil leaks, then it is safe to switch to synthetic. Run a 5W30 oil and you will be fine. Mobil 1 and Amsoil are the only true synthetics out there on the retail shelves. Royal Prurple is good stuff also, but hard to find in retail stores. The rest are a Group III synthetic, which is close but not a true synthetic. Don't waste your money on a "synthetic blend" either.

[palindromelol]

Skatendestroy...

Mobil 1 was engineered in New Haven CT at Science Park by Olin Corporation for Mobil. The project manager during the development of Mobil 1 was a chemist named John P. Marano, a Ph.D. from Yale. ( I only know this because I worked for him subsequently) He developed the polyester based lubricant (later named Mobil 1) to not break down under used for 300,000 miles. YUP 300,000 miles. They approached GM and suggested GM put Mobil 1 in all their engines and up the warrantee without oil changes because the oil is so good. Which it is.

GM was unwilling to change its recommended oil change frequency (3000-5000 miles) not because of the oil, but because of the oil filtration and contamination of the oil by engine metals and combustion products, and intake pollutants.

So even I don't bother with the synthetics. I still change the oil every 4000 miles, plain old oil, because it has become contaminated with carbon, metal, NO2, SO2, dirt etc. The filters cannot get the chemicals out. They get the large particals and grit, but they cannot get the corrosion causing molecules. Molecules are very small.

So, I'm my humble opinion, use a good quality oil, change it every 4000 miles, don't bother with the synthetics. The reason the oil degrades has little to do with its lubricity and everything to do with its contamination. Even cheap oils don't degrade in only 4000 miles of normal driving. If you are racing, I plead the fifth.

[das2123]

Originally Posted by palindromelol

The reason the oil degrades has little to do with its lubricity and everything to do with its contamination.

You obviously are not in the oil analysis business like I am. An oil's lubricity has more to do with degradation than you think.

Originally Posted by palindromelol

Even cheap oils don't degrade in only 4000 miles of normal driving

How do you know or confirm this? The so called "cheap oils" look alot worse after 3000-4000 miles of driving than the synthetic. The engine also looks alot cleaner and less wear particles in the oil analysis data. Synthetics are the way to go for a long healthy engine. I know people who have been running Mobil 1, since their first oil change in their neon, and now have 300,000-400,000 miles on their original neon with no problems. I can't say the same for conventional oils.

[palindromelol]

das2123

Jeeez das2123... I didn't mean to bruise your ego...
The Inventor of Mobil 1, makes the claim that cheap oils are just as effective at 4000 miles as Mobil 1. He did not make the claim that cheap oils are just as good at 100,000 miles.

Cheap oils, like the ones recomended by all of the automobile makers, cheap oils, the ones that are CHEAPER than Mobil 1, which is nearly all non synth oils, Cheap oils, the ones with the SAE 10 w 30 et al on the container, SAE being the Society of Automotive Engineers, which I presume you must be one since you are so exhaustive conversent in poise, stokes, newtonian and non-newtonian viscoelastic and non elastic behavior. SAE which established the standard testing method for oils which must be done by any oil distributer to be able to use the SAE reference.

Das2123, I'll take SAE's Engineering opinion before yours thank-you. Here is the SAE's membership link:
http://www.sae.org/servlets/preLogin...larApplication
I'm sure they will benifit from you vast unique knowledge that surpasses the definitive organization on lubrication.

I'll take the inventor of Mobil 1's opinion before yours. Thank-you

When an oil is made to a specification it is made to a specification. It can't be MAGICALLY better. Unless of course it is snake oil... we all now how good snake oil is.

If you are in the oil analysis business, you have every reason to make yourself sound more important that you are. It is in your interest to assert your opinion.

It is in Toyota's interest to keep engines from wearing prematurely so they don't have to pay out warranty claims. So what oils do Toyota and Honda put in their vehicles? Hmmmmmm

What do any of the other manufacturers put in their vehicles? HMMMMMMM

Cheap oils last 4000 miles. That is when you ought to look at you oils and check for water content, grit, carbon etc. To let it go longer is asking for trouble.

Das2123 better inform a team of class action attorneys that Ford, Chysler, GM, Toyota, Honda, NAPA, Mobil, SAE, Autozone, Valvoline, QuakerState etc etc are defrauding the millions of driving public by deliberately recommending an oil grade sanctioned by SAE that will damge the engines of all vehicles.

Below are the definitive citations on mechanical propeties and chemical properties of oil issued by SAE.


http://www.sae.org/servlets/productD...CD=J304_199906
http://www.sae.org/servlets/productD...CD=J357_199910

Below is one of Mobil's latest patent on oil... it refers to the SAE standards, the kinematic viscostities the molecular weights of the base stock and the therrmal breakdown temps.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...t+AND+AN/mobil

Yes you are right I am not in the business like you are. I don't have to blow smoke up any ****. I just read the SAE literature.

Oh yeah., I'm already a member of SAE and ASME.

[das2123]

I don't have an ego to be bruised, I have peace within myself, therefore not needing an ego. You say you take other people's opinions over mine, and that is your choice to do so. But when I am looking at oil analysis data day after day, year after year, I will say that synthetics offer more protection than a conventional oil anyday. After 4000 miles, the differences maybe small, but after 100,000-200,000 miles of oil changes, the engine running the synthetic oil is cleaner, runs smoother, and has significantly less wear than the conventional oil. These are not OPINIONS, these are facts that I have seen from data and from looking at the engines as well. I don't believe every thing I read anyway just because it is print. I will save my money on the SAE and ASME memberships, I don't need to say I am a member of any organization to try and prove points. Instead, I'll use that money to buy my synthetic oil. So I guess you feel the same way about oil filters to, huh? Any oil filter will do, even the cheap ones

[palindromelol]

skatendestroy,

There you have it, despite the ad-hominum goading by an emotionally fragile prostilitizer and self promoter self gratified only by casting epithets, we are in agreement that after 4000 miles conventional oil is no different than synthetic oil. (Which is what I said)

Unfortunately for you Mr. Skatendestroy you are trying to make an informed opinion about what to buy and your learning was temporarily sidelined by someone who make his business touting the importance of oil analysis. I'm surprised that you haven't got a quote from him.

Only FORD, GM, Daimler-Chrysler, Toyota, Honda, Castrol, Quakerstate, Valvoline etc etc AND SAE and ASME and API say that even using RECYCLED is equivalent to "new oil".

You should ask yourself, where does oil come from? Deep in the ground, mixed with rock, water, and Gosh knows what. Industrial processing cleans, fractions, and establishes the oil to meet design speciication layed out by API and SAE.

If you do a web search, 10,000 oil retailers will tell you that a 10 W 30 synth is not actually a 10 W 30 with all the thermal, viscosty, chemical, and wear charateristics a 10 W 30 HAS to have to be a 10 W 30. OOOO ......it is better.... than a 10 W 30....

They tell, on one hand, its a 10W30.. then, on the other hand, they tell you its NOT a 10W30. Ever wonder why?

Synths cost no more to produce than regular oil but the retailers get 3-6 times the profit from it.

Think of it... it costs more but has the same API or SAE grading. What are you paying for if the testing authorities can discriminate between them?

More important than good synth vs con, a spec oil filter is very important. As I said, the wear doesn not come from the oil, it come from the fuel, and air contaminants, the combustion products, (water, carbon Nox and Sox) Corrosion products in the engine.