Trying to get a handle on this lift stuff and...

[Lugnut]

Ok, it's indulge the newbie time. I've been following the various threads and trying to get a handle on the lifts. So just when I think I'm about to order the Cal Mini setup (since it appears all inclusive)...along comes Philosopher and his posts.

So it looks like he's cranked the new T-bars up and added the AAL springs. Is it really that important to change the upper ball joint and a-arm due to the increased angle...or is this one of those "gee it would be nice" kind of things?

From what I've gathered, it looks like the true increase in front ride height is really through adjusting the T-bars and that the new a-arms have nothing to do with this? Or do they allow you a little more room for adjustment? Also, I can't tell for sure who the preferred T-bar manufacturer as it looks like there's been a couple selected...or is there?

My driving is 80% on highway and 20% offroad..but hope to start shifting that balance towards a 50/50 split.

TIA for any input as I want to make an educated decision and avoid the Synchro dilemma (you know...damn, damn...).

Lug

:bathroom:

[gothamist]

With the lift kit, you gain three main things:
1) downtravel (and the nice ride of having downtravel again comes back)
2) ability to return alignment to factory specifications (or at least an order of magnitude closer)
3) a bit of height.

If I were to crank my torsion bars up to the level I have my truck at now (with the AC lift installed), my stock upper a-arms would be compressing the bumpstops into tiny pancakes, and I would have NO downtravel left. The ride would suck, tire wear would suck, and I would bounce around and probably break stuff offroad more frequently.

There are only two torsion bar manufacturers, Sway-A-way (who makes the NisMo bars), and SLR...maybe Calmini (do they make their own???) The SLR bars are double the cost of the NisMo/SAW ones. Not sure of anyone who's actually bought them.

I like my AC kit. I'm not a fan of Calmini as of yet (still waiting for an original product that I actually like), but to each their own.

[warmonger]

Calmini's kit is nowhere near all-inclusive. First, it doesn't offer a rear spring pack option. If you plan on putting larger tires on or a locker, you BETTER get a spring pack. Otherwise the wheel hop is going to break something.

It also doesn't include a diff drop as does the SLR kit. This will help relieve driveaxle angularity and reduce vibration from the extreme angles on the drive axles after the lift. It is not absolutely necessary, but if you are building a truck for serious off-roading, I wouldn't be without it.

What you need to evaluate is what you plan to do with your truck. Do you want it all show or all go? Will you build it to show and then head out with your buddies and trash it while you try to keep up with them? Do you plan on adding a winch, bigger tires (that spare is going to REALLY suck hung under that X if it's a 11.50 or wider tire) or a locker? What you buy hinges on all those things. I HIGHLY recommend you look closely at them and then decide where you want to go.

[gothamist]

Originally posted by warmonger
It also doesn't include a diff drop as does the SLR kit. This will help relieve driveaxle angularity and reduce vibration from the extreme angles on the drive axles after the lift. It is not absolutely necessary, but if you are building a truck for serious off-roading, I wouldn't be without it.

Umm, I don't see how the diff drop would reduce vibration, and it seems to me more likely to increase driveline vibration (look at Ian Firth's experience, although he did say the vibration is minor.) The front driveshaft angle isn't changing on our trucks due to IFS (front diff + transfer case being fixed relative to each other except for when you do use a diff drop), so therefore the only angles that increase with the lift kit are the angles of the CV joints. I am not aware of steeper CV joint angles causing vibration, are you saying this can happen? Do you know of it happening? The steeper angles (esp. those approaching 22 degrees) will wear out the CV joints faster though.

p.s. If you're building a truck for "serious off-roading" you picked the wrong platform to start with! I offroad to have fun.
(Just messing with you...)

[warmonger]

Gothamist,

I didn't say driveshaft angularity, I said driveaxle angularity. There is a difference. And yes, I know about Ian's experience.

Driveaxle angularity can cause vibration as well as excessive CV Joint wear. After reading Ian's write-up on the SLR suspension and the problem he had with a slight vibration with the hubs engaged, I believe I know why it occurs. Although this is speculation, it is based on years of doing vibration diagnosis at automotive dealerships. I am willing to bet the vibration is coming from the reduced bushing size between the frame mount and the differential.

If you will notice in the GM IFS lift kits, the entire diff and mounting assembly is dropped. In the SLR kit is dropped by removing the centered mounting bushing and installing an off-center mounting bushing. This puts the diff closer to the frame. The less rubber between the frame and diff, the more vibration will be transferred during operation of the diff. Since all gear parts move with the hubs locked, this will occur whether in 4WD or not. But the reduced driveaxle angle is far superior than some of the angles I have seen in other lift kits.

As for the "serious off-roading" comment you made, I agree. But I consider the off-roading I do serious, albeit with limitations. I want my truck to be the best it can be for what I use it for. I know I won't ever crush cars with it, but I do need it to get me through heavy snow, sand and mud if needed.

[Sgt_Lobo]

Originally posted by warmonger
I want my truck to be the best it can be for what I use it for. I know I won't ever crush cars with it, but I do need it to get me through heavy snow, sand and mud if needed.

Yeah, I know what you mean. With all the heavy snow we get here in Mississippi and Florida, it's nice to have a truck that can handle it!

[gothamist]

War--I'm with you now. What you're saying makes sense, although Ian does say on his XOC writeup that the vibration is in part also because the bushings change from rubber to Delron.

I would be more concerned with dropping the diff to reduce wear and vibration if people were having complaints about vibration and were blowing out CV's who were running the AC/Calmini/Rancho kits. As of yet the only trucks that have broken CV's on the trail (that I know of) are Pikachu's and SLR's (Pik's was unlifted, SLR's was running their lift.)

[Lugnut]

Thanks for the info. and feedback. I figured that since a lot of you guys were running w/ the AAL's...then that should be fine for my light offroading too. Also, I don't have a company car anymore (DOH) which means the X has to do double duty as a commuter. From Gothamist's comments, it looks like you need to go the whole nine yards to do it right...so now it's just a matter of settling on a kit...thanks again.

Lug

[FSRBIKER]

From the only review of Calmini's kit which was in 4 Wheel Drive & Sport Utility magazine there was not increase in articulation/travel up front...if this is true(and no one has denied it) then stay away from this kit unless you are going for looks. BTW Calmini uses Rancho 5000 shocks painted blue, there torsion bars I believe are the Sway Away ones..again painted blue. I have an idea to reduce the angle of the axle shafts, I just need to do some more research if it will work for the X/Frontier.

[Schludwiller]

I'm at work so I can't get out and look under my truck, but don't larger tires reduce the CV joint angle too?

Seems like they would.

I would be curious to see the angle difference between an SLR lifted truck with 32's, and a stock Xterra with Long Trails.

[OffroadX]

AFAIK, tires should not affect the geometry at all.

Brent

[FSRBIKER]

Your right Brent it shouldn't since all you did was add taller tires that effectively increased your ground clearance...everything went up...but to run 32's we all adjusted the torsion bars so i guess the answer would be no with 31's.

[Lugnut]

FSRBiker's comment is the type of thing I'm trying to get cleared up in my mind. I've sifted through over a hundred posts (Mosi, Synchro, SgtLobo, Gothamist, etc.) to gather info and it seems that everyone has a different approach. Me thinks I should put together a matrix to simplify the selection process and save the group from this question again. I tried to find the 4 wheel mag mentioned but it was already gone off the stands @ a couple places...but the new question is what is the difference between say SLR/AC and Calmini such that travel IS increased?

Thanks...and I'll capture all of this to place into a faq.

Lug

[Philosopher]

Originally posted by Lugnut
it looks like you need to go the whole nine yards to do it right...

Exactly right.

[wqbang]

Lugnut,

Don't "save the group from this question again". These questions are what this forum is about.

If you want to work on the truck in stages, you can do exactly what Schlud, MT, gothamist, synchro, and mosi have done. Do it incrementally. Shocks first, add a leafs and torsion bars, then A-arms and ball joints. Just be sure to keep the torsion lift to a minimum without replacing the A-arms. no more than 1.5" - 2" inches in the front. You could even consider the 2" lift shackles instead of add-a-leafs, although I think the add-a-leafs would be better in the long run. This method also gives you the benefit of getting the exact components that you want for a lift.

Remember, you can run 32's with minor torsion bar adjustment, unless of course you have an ARB and your bars are sagging.....