Interesting ideas for the bored.

[Killa_CRX]

I was watching the history channel the other day, and there was a show on about hybrid vehicles and fuel saving vehicles... and I saw something I thought was an interesting idea.
A guy had modified his Toyota Tundra V6 to run off both regular gasoline and hydrogen. The neat thing was, he was talking about modifications that he had to make to the engine to accept and burn the hydrogen... basically the only things he did was add an extra set of injectors for the hydrogen and then a distribution system for it (similar to a direct port nitros injection system), and also had to have the computer custom programed to recognise the extra fuel in the system and distribute and burn the fuel accordingly.
Now he said doing this increased the fuel economy from 28mpg (hwy miles) to almost 60mpg.... the only two questions I have in my mind were, how did this affect the over all power of his engine (gains, losses?), considering that hydrogen is less combustable than gasoline, and how much hydrogen was he using per mile (hydrogen is as yet NOT cheap)?
This all comes to mind, considering projected fuel price increases will be between $1.20 to $1.50 over the next year.

Anyone like to discuss this further?

[4-Door Flunky]

I'd like to know more about the Honda Civic hydrogen-powered cars used in Los Angeles.
Let's see somebody mod one of those!
New Mexico (my state) is trying to get in the forefront of hydrogen technology, specifically by designing fuel cells. That's what the smart guys at Los Alamos National Laboratory are working on.
The biggest problem for hydrogen is that the molecule is tiny, so that it will seep out of any container you put it in. Fortunately, it disperses quickly, so that a leaky cell probably won't blow up your garage like a leaky gas tank.
The other problem is; where do you get it? There's no pools of it laying about, and no drilling you can do to get it. You have to make it, that is, break down something else like water, and get the hydro.
Then you're back to storage.
Anyway, making the hydrogen ends up being expensive...and requires energy.
Also, the oil and gas guys are fighting it tooth and nail.
Flunky

[Doc Jones]

As far as where do you get it. It is probably a complex/costly process, but distilled water is a readily available source of hydrogen (h2o). While hydrogen might not be as combustable as gasoline, it is still very volitaile, Hindenberg anyone? I think eventually we will see some kind of electric/hydrogen hybrids, where the car has an electric hydrogen condenser, so all you have to do is add water to the tank, then the electric portion of the car will separate the hydrogen out. The trick then would be to either manage to keep the ammount of fuel grade hydrogen low, or facilitate a storage method to lower the volatility of it. In a wreck between a pair of hydrogen cars there is a pretty good chance of an explosion I would think, however I haven't taken chemistry, so perhaps someone with more technical/chemical knowledge can either debunk my idea or lend some credibility to it.

[amy@af]

Killa_CRX, good topic

i saw that show too. the question is, does anybody remember any of the websites? it seemed like every car on the show had some kind of web addy or another...even the french fry smelling hippie

Originally Posted by 4-Door Flunky

I'd like to know more about the Honda Civic hydrogen-powered cars used in Los Angeles.
Let's see somebody mod one of those!

i was just down there last week and saw quite a few rolling around..more than i expected

[Killa_CRX]

Originally Posted by Doc Jones

As far as where do you get it. It is probably a complex/costly process, but distilled water is a readily available source of hydrogen (h2o). While hydrogen might not be as combustable as gasoline, it is still very volitaile, Hindenberg anyone? I think eventually we will see some kind of electric/hydrogen hybrids, where the car has an electric hydrogen condenser, so all you have to do is add water to the tank, then the electric portion of the car will separate the hydrogen out. The trick then would be to either manage to keep the ammount of fuel grade hydrogen low, or facilitate a storage method to lower the volatility of it. In a wreck between a pair of hydrogen cars there is a pretty good chance of an explosion I would think, however I haven't taken chemistry, so perhaps someone with more technical/chemical knowledge can either debunk my idea or lend some credibility to it.

The cost of seperating hydrogen from water is very cheap... the most expesive part of the whole process is the initial cost of the water, because it takes less electricity to do it than a 9volt battery puts out... technically some type of solar power could be used as the power source.
As far as storage of the hydrogen... despite container leakage, some type of container could be devised to recombine leaking hydrogen with oxygen to create water and recirculate it back through the system.

As far as the hindenberg... new studies have concluded that it was the paint used on the outter skin of the hindenberg that was used to make it air tight that was the actual cause of the explosion... the powedered aluminum paint that was used was actually as explosive as napalm.

[Killa_CRX]

Originally Posted by LadyNRedSi

Killa_CRX, good topic

i saw that show too. the question is, does anybody remember any of the websites? it seemed like every car on the show had some kind of web addy or another...even the french fry smelling hippie

Can't remember any of the websites... I've just been trying to remember which history channel program it was on... I think modern marvels, but I'm not sure

[Doc Jones]

Originally Posted by Killa_CRX

As far as the hindenberg... new studies have concluded that it was the paint used on the outter skin of the hindenberg that was used to make it air tight that was the actual cause of the explosion... the powedered aluminum paint that was used was actually as explosive as napalm.

So it was the flammability not the volitility of the hydrogen that helped it along, sparked off by the volitility of the powdered aluminum paint.

[Killa_CRX]

Originally Posted by Doc Jones

So it was the flammability not the volitility of the hydrogen that helped it along, sparked off by the volitility of the powdered aluminum paint.

The over all flamability of the hydrogen contributed very little to the burning dissaster, because the majority of the hydrogen would have burned off too quickly... the over all explosion and fire was caused by the paint on the skin and super structure of the hindenberg... people died when/because the superstructure, still on fire, collapsed over the passenger cabin and cooked everyone from the outside in, before the cabin itself actually burned to asshes.... damn I want too much history channel.... point being, the hydrogen contributed very little to the disaster.... it could have been filled with hot air instead, and the explosion and fire would still have been just as intense and deadly.
Hydrogen is safer, from a fire hazard stand point, than gasoline... and much cleaner too
I still just wonder what the power gains or losses would be over gasoline.

Then I wonder if you could use the same method with nitrous oxide to improve both fuel economy and power with just a small amount of no2 being distributed to the engine constantly.

[1995 geo tracker]

check this site out , you can make a water burning car yourself http://www.keelynet.com/energy/waterfuel.htm