Buick PA 1991 no crank problem

[buick8791]

Hi,

So, in our Park Avenue 1991(normal aspirated) has the No-crank problem.

I have noticed/ tested the following things, so

- battery is ok
- all the lights and as well as instrument panel lights are functioning, also pack-up lights

- no trouble codes

- no voltage for starter solenoid, when turning the key into start position

- no voltage in the thicker yellow wire for the P/N switch, when turning the key in to the start position. I tested the voltage in the yellow thick wire so that the plug near to P/N switch was disconnected, but tested the voltages from input side of the plug. Wrong tested??

- the key ohms are ok, same as in the spare key.

-fuses are ok.


What next to test reasonable easy? If there is some malfunctions regarding the Theft deferrent system box and/or starter enable relay, I would discard the whole system with a couple of resistors matching in our key. I have had the instructions for the by-pass installations but I have lost them.



Thanks beforehand!


BR,


Pena

[maxwedge]

Is the security lite on all the time?

[Tech II]

As Max asked, the first thing to do is observe the SECURITY LIGHT in the cluster.....Turn the key to on(don't crank), the SECURITY LIGHT should come on for 3-5 seconds and then go out.....

Does it stay on? If it does the first thing to suspect is the wiring to the lock cylinder,,,,,

If it goes out, then I would be checking the starter enable relay and it's circuits.....easiest thing to do it swap the relay with another one in the fuse block.....when the key is turned to crank, you should feel the relay "click".....

If it doesn't, remove the relay......and with a test light attached to a good ground, probe all 4 "legs" in the fuse block(may need a paper clip to reach the contacts)....nothing should light up......now have someone hold the key in the crank position....two of the legs should now light up....If nothing lights, check Fuse #2, 60A(in underhood fuse block).....if only one lights, check Fuse #8, 10A(in relay center).....

If both light, and relay is good, then the other two circuits have to be checked.....

One circuit is the control circuit and that is the circuit that grounds the coil of the relay, and that circuit is grounded by the PassKey module.....the other circuit, is the line that comes out of the relay contacts and goes to the P/N switch(yellow wire)......

[buick8791]

Hi,

thank you on your replies!

What I noticed concerning security light, it works as follows:

-doors shut and not key in the ignition lock: no security light


- door open, and not key in ignition lock. security light is blinking


- key in ignition lock but not in ignition position: security light is blinking


- turning ignition on but not turned into crank: security light disappears immediately


All the fuses are OK!


I didn´t tested the relays/legs, because i don´t know, what of the relays is starter enable relay in the underhood fuse box.

Could you please tell where the relay in question is exactly located? Chilton manual doesn´t tell it. It says, that ...fuses along with additional relays…..


BTW, the fuse number 2 is for Ignition, says manual and that fuse also is not burnt.


Could you please help me with additional information to proceed.


BR, Pena

[Tech II]

Here ya go.....

sorry wouldn't download

[Tech II]

This should help:

Since the security light goes out with the key in the "on" position, then the starter enable relay circuit has to be checked.....the relay is not in the underhood fuse block, my mistake....exactly where? Not sure....does your owner's manual state where it is located?

If not, there is another fuse/relay center on the passenger side, under the dash....you might have to remove the hush panel and the lower side kick panel to see it.....

If it's not there, try removing the kick panel on the driver's side(near e-brake)....you might find a single relay there(I remember that's where they use to have them in the Firebird's).....one thing you can try, is listen for a click from the relay when the key is turned to the crank position....

[buick8791]

Thanks for your answer!

But, the relay is not located in the passenger side relay center nor driver side fuse center in PA 1991.

It is possible that I can hear some click in the driver side under the dash, when cranking, but I can't see any relay. Must be very far. It is also possibe, that the click sound comes from passenger siderelay center; injectors, ignition etc.

I test once more the yellow wire near to p/n switch and examinethe wiring schema you sent. If I can't find the solution, I would make the resistor bypass for the whole atd system, if i get the instructions.

I be back soon.

Br, Pena

[buick8791]

Hi again,


in the yellow thicker wire to P/N switch has no voltages(made an new test). I listed the click voice/sound under the driver side dash. Maybe there was an click but not same as does correct functioning relay, hard to say.


And as I indicated before, that relay location is in far under the dash probably demanding dismantling the whole instrument cluster.


So I would make that system bypass with resistors. Would you or somebody have the instructions for the job?


BR, Pena

[maxwedge]

Google Vats bypass.

[Tech II]

DO NOT BYPASS THE SYSTEM!

That will not fix a relay problem......

Under the driver's side, near the ebrake, is a plastic kick panel....remove it.....down towards the floor is where that relay is located on a Firebird....see if it is there.....It will stick out because you do not expect a relay to be there.....

Make sure vehicle is in Park and the ebrake applied....be careful because the engine may start....One thing you can do, turn key to "on", and disconnect the the harness from the P/N switch, and run a "hot wire" from your battery to the purple wire in the harness....the car should crank over and start....this will verify that there is nothing wrong with the lock cylinder, key, or PassKey module....the problem is the relay....probably just need a new one....

Problem is finding the damn thing....

[Tech II]

DO NOT BYPASS THE SYSTEM!

That will not fix a relay problem......

Under the driver's side, near the ebrake, is a plastic kick panel....remove it.....down towards the floor is where that relay is located on a Firebird....see if it is there.....It will stick out because you do not expect a relay to be there.....

One thing you can do, turn key to "on", and disconnect the the harness from the P/N switch, and run a "hot wire" from your battery to the purple wire in the harness....the car should crank over and start....this will verify that there is nothing wrong with the lock cylinder, key, or PassKey module....the problem is the relay....probably just need a new one....

[buick8791]

Thanks for all!

I will scheck the things again, but the wirings in PA 1991 would be different than Firebird and Camaro as it is in our GN'87.

I will be back again.

Br, Pena

[Tech II]

Yes the wiring is different from a Firebird.....I just suggested it because I knew it was there in a Firebird, and GM sometimes copycats locations.....worth a shot....

[buick8791]

Hi,
checked, what things are under the driver side kick panel, there is not any relay. I found the the wiring and relay location information in the other forum:
the relay is really located behind the instrument cluster, above the fuse box and if the relay has to be replaced, it demands to pull out the cluster.

Is it really so, that the resistor bypass method does not cure the relay problem?

BR,

Pentti

[Tech II]

Think about it......all the bypass does is, replace the key in the circuit.....you say when you turn the key to "on", the Security light goes out after 3-5 seconds, so there is nothing wrong with the key or the wiring to the lock cylinder.....

I seriously doubt you have to remove the cluster......you may have to be somewhat of a contortionist to get to it......

And remember, I am not saying it is the relay, but that you have to check the whole relay circuit.......it could be the relay or one of the four circuits to it.....