Clutch & or Trans issue GTS

[Rich F]

Got the motor back in my GTS. While it was out I had the transmission rebuilt. It was in good shape but I figured I was in deep with the car down for a while.

Put everything back in and took the car off the jack stands rolled it out an tried to go for a test drive around my shop this afternoon.

Got half way around the building felt like the clutch slipped a little, I shifted to 2nd and there was no power getting to the rear wheels. Stepped on the clutch changed gears and released it and nothing. The car won't move in any of the gears forward or reverse. I can also shift any gear with the motor running and nothing. In short no connection from engine to rear end. I have the 8.5" Q master clutch set up which many have posted is crap or worse.

Ran out of steam this afternoon and did not feel like pulling everything I had just finished putting together apart again.

I'm going to try and get the trans out tomorrow night if I have the time and I'll check to see if there was an internal failure there.

Just curious if anyone has had this kind of failure and it was a clutch only problem. I'm also going to call the transmission shop to see what they think. Either way trans or clutch I'll get it figured out right after the trans comes out.

Any feedback would be appreciated.

Also suggestions of a useable track day / race clutch package would be appreciated. Trying to keep it on the low cost side. I'm already in the toilet over $ 6k with the motor and trans rebuild an don't really want to dump another $1,500 in a high tech mini clutch. My engine is somewhere in the 440 hp range and I don't plan to do what BG has with the 600+ hp gorilla.

After crashing last fall at NJMP last fall and now this mess I'm getting more than a bit discouraged. Haven't had a lap in this thing at speed yet. Lot's of time & $$ out.

Rich

[Rich F]

Got everything out of the car tonight. The transmission will only go into 4th gear. 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th & reverse do not engage. Plan to take the trans. back to the shop that just rebuilt it in the morning.

As long as I'm back in I'm going to change out the Q master clutch. Still looking for feedback. I want a simple to install and maintain unit. Looking at Ram, Spec and Mcleod. Will consider others if anyone has a suggestion.

[panozracing]

I'll sell you my McLeod if you want it?

I am going with a triple disc either Tilton or Quartermaster.

[NZGTRA17]

Originally Posted by Rich F

Got everything out of the car tonight. The transmission will only go into 4th gear. 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th & reverse do not engage. Plan to take the trans. back to the shop that just rebuilt it in the morning.

As long as I'm back in I'm going to change out the Q master clutch. Still looking for feedback. I want a simple to install and maintain unit. Looking at Ram, Spec and Mcleod. Will consider others if anyone has a suggestion.

Rich, although I am a 7.5" tripple plate convert, I have used a number of 10.5" dia single plate clutches (up to around 480hp/420ftlbs) with some success. Issues that I have found with this are that you are better to use a Ford style pressure plate rather than a GM style diaphragm pressure plate (at least in the applications I have worked on, mainly due to better clamping the Ford units seem to provide due to design/attachement). In all the GM single plate applications I struggled with clutch slip unless diapragm pressure was up around 3000lbs and then I had pedal and slave stress problems.

I found that the clutch that came with the GTRA (Valeo heavy duty aftermarket pressure plate and organic lined sprung hub clutch plate) worked surprisingly well with the 5.0 with around 400hp/400ftlbs. I expected this to be a weak link but it performed very well. Albeit that its mass really slowed the engine down, especially when accelerating in low gears.

There are plenty of aftermarket 10.5" dia heavy duty options. If this is the path you want to go down, I would use an aluminium flywheel combined with a race "paddle style" heavy duty clutch plate and a matched race pressure plate.

Kel.

[Rich F]

Brian,
E-mail me with the details. Depending on what it is I'd be interested. I'm so far into this thing that I don't want to put anything to heavily used.

rfracer25(at)comcast.net

[NZGTRA17]

Originally Posted by panozracing

I'll sell you my McLeod if you want it?

I am going with a triple disc either Tilton or Quartermaster.

Brian, I have now used both the Tilton and Quartermaster brands. I do not see any significant advantage to either. If you want to save some $$, as mentioned in a previous post, I have now purchased a number of tripple plates (used and new) via E Bay and normally only paid around $120 - 200 for these.

I have no concerns using a used clutch as due to smaller dia and low mass, stress on these is mostly related to wear caused by excessive slippage. As long as the clutch plates and floaters measure up OK and do not have excessive heat stress cracks then they will be OK.

The current Quartermaster that I have was purchased as a new excess to requirements unit off a NASCAR team and as I recall cost $220.

Just bear in mind that if you do purchase via likes of E Bay, unless you are lucky, clutch plate spline mismatch may mean you need to purchase a new set of plates (most NASCAR units are 29 spline).

Kel.

[Rich F]

Kel,
Thanks for the info. I'm really not sure what to do. Everyone says the single disc Q-master that comes with the GTS is not a great clutch (crap, junk etc.). Kevin a said his was hard to set up (in and out 4 times) on his GTS to get it to work. Not sure what all the fuss is about but mine is a bit tired so I figured I'm back in, might as well do it all.

I know that the problem I had yesterday was trans related. I'm just trying to get the drive train right so I can get a day in at the track. I know the smaller diameter is a much better way to go. I have to look around and figure out the best route. I'll call Q-master tomorrow and see what they might suggest. We used to use the Tilton 3 disc set up with a hydraulic throw out bearing in a Tour mod (600+hp). Never had much trouble with them circle track racing weekly. Road course is harder on the equipment and this is my first race car deal with the Tremec etc. If I change anything form what's in the car is flywheel, clutch yada yada yada. Would you go 2 or 3 disc? My engine is a rebuilt 351 Spec motor. Likely somewhere in the low 400-425 HP (despite what Panoz advertised in this car I think that's all there is.

thanks
Rich

[NZGTRA17]

Originally Posted by Rich F

Kel,
Thanks for the info. I'm really not sure what to do. Everyone says the single disc Q-master that comes with the GTS is not a great clutch (crap, junk etc.). Kevin a said his was hard to set up (in and out 4 times) on his GTS to get it to work. Not sure what all the fuss is about but mine is a bit tired so I figured I'm back in, might as well do it all.

I know that the problem I had yesterday was trans related. I'm just trying to get the drive train right so I can get a day in at the track. I know the smaller diameter is a much better way to go. I have to look around and figure out the best route. I'll call Q-master tomorrow and see what they might suggest. We used to use the Tilton 3 disc set up with a hydraulic throw out bearing in a Tour mod (600+hp). Never had much trouble with them circle track racing weekly. Road course is harder on the equipment and this is my first race car deal with the Tremec etc. If I change anything form what's in the car is flywheel, clutch yada yada yada. Would you go 2 or 3 disc? My engine is a rebuilt 351 Spec motor. Likely somewhere in the low 400-425 HP (despite what Panoz advertised in this car I think that's all there is.

thanks
Rich

Rich, regards single Vs 2 plate Vs 3 plate with Quartermaster etc, I have gone 3 plate as these are far more freely available via the NASCAR market. In reality with the torque our engines produce, a single plate can do the job, a 2 plate is a little over specced and a 3 plate is approx double the torque rating of what we produce.

However there are some other issues to consider. My experience has been that as you reduce the number of plates you have less stack and therefore less "take up" on clutching. From single and 2 plate cars that I have driven there is little or no modulation so the clutch can be very harsh in its engagement. I have not driven a GTS 8.5" setup so cannot specifically comment on this.

The 3 plate clutches I have used have been OK modulation wise and the current one I have is pretty good off the line and on the move, if your timing is right, you would think that it is a standard clutch. I have only looped the car once so far due to locking the rears at a rather inopportune time and this was entirely my fault.

The other thing I like about the 3 plate option is that you have more surface area to spread the heat over. This does not mean that you can abuse or slip a 3 plate but I think they will last better if treated well.

My 2c worth.........good luck with the decision making on this.

Kel.

PS - only othet thing to think about is what mass you want on the back of the engine with the synchro box you are running. Less mass = greater need to rev match on downshift.

[Rich F]

Got the transmission to the shop and apart apart. The key on the lower cluster main gear sheared. I think the guy that did the rebuild really messed up. New synchros, bearings and rem polished everything. Not sure how it's going to work out with him. He was my buddy until it broke. I think he's going to try and charge me for the repair.

Spoke to Quarter Master (very helpful guy named Dave). They make an 8.5" double disc model that should fit the QM GTS flywheel I have. Apparently they are updating their web site and many products are not on the site. He claims it's a much better unit than the older single disc that came with the GTS. He is going to verify that the unit will fit my flywheel and call tomorrow with pricing (he guessed it would be a bit less than the 7.25 models). Will also switch to the center hydraulic throw out bearing while I'm in there.

[Jim woodruff]

Originally Posted by Rich F

Got the transmission to the shop and apart apart. The key on the lower cluster main gear sheared. I think the guy that did the rebuild really messed up. New synchros, bearings and rem polished everything. Not sure how it's going to work out with him. He was my buddy until it broke. I think he's going to try and charge me for the repair.

Spoke to Quarter Master (very helpful guy named Dave). They make an 8.5" double disc model that should fit the QM GTS flywheel I have. Apparently they are updating their web site and many products are not on the site. He claims it's a much better unit than the older single disc that came with the GTS. He is going to verify that the unit will fit my flywheel and call tomorrow with pricing (he guessed it would be a bit less than the 7.25 models). Will also switch to the center hydraulic throw out bearing while I'm in there.

since I am going thru some clutch and fly wheel issues the following weights were measured on my high tech baby scale. these are fly wheels only and are actual.

Ford nodular iron wt.21.25 lbs
Ram alum/steel wt.14.25 lbs
zoom alum/ steel wt. 12.0 lbs
quatermaster alum/steel 11.0 lbs
summit steel steel/steel 23.0 lbs

The best looking and degree of quality workman ship looks to be the Zoom.
The lighest including the clutch is the quatermaster. Since I live a half hour from Summit Racing I am going with what Summit stocks. After talking to the quatermaster people my flywheel and clutch are junk. This info. only.

[Rich F]

Jim,
Thanks for the info. I sent my flywheel and clutch to Quartermaster for them to look at yesterday. They received it today and have it on some load test equipment to see what kind of shape the pressure plate and disc are in.

Was your stuff just worn out or actually damaged (reference junk)? I assume you have the original single 8.5 V extreme unit.

Are you thinking of a 10.5" full size single disc street type unit? From looking at the brands (summit, Zoom, Ram) you have the weights on that's what it sounds like. Any concern with the larger diameter? Kel has suggested that the larger diameter will not respond as well as the smaller.

I'd like to know which models you are considering as it looks like I've been poking around the same places. I've also heard some guys on another site (ffcars.com) that like both Ram and Spec. They are running them in a spec racer Factory Five *obra replica kit car w/ lower power (230hp) 302 EFI similar to the stock RA cars. Guys are also using them on higher power street car versions.

Rich

[panozracing]

Looks like I am going to go to a 7.25 triple disc clutch. I just had the McLeod unit I have inspected and its all in great shape according to promotion powertrain. It also has the upgraded 5 strap downshifting road race upgrade and the aluminum/iron pressure plate road race upgrade. I checked and the pressure plate (special upgrade RR edition) I have is $639 and the clutch friction plate is $200 plus the $329 anderson lightweight flywheel. All with less than 20hrs on them. They will go up for sale very soon.

360048-5A - http://www.mcleodracing.com/products...mcl?rsku=15840

AF-SLFW50 - http://www.andersonfordmotorsport.co...chk=1&Itemid=1

Unit works fine. A little tricky to install but I think I have it figured out. Handles up to 600FWHP.

[Jim woodruff]

Originally Posted by Rich F

Jim,
Thanks for the info. I sent my flywheel and clutch to Quartermaster for them to look at yesterday. They received it today and have it on some load test equipment to see what kind of shape the pressure plate and disc are in.

Was your stuff just worn out or actually damaged (reference junk)? I assume you have the original single 8.5 V extreme unit.

Are you thinking of a 10.5" full size single disc street type unit? From looking at the brands (summit, Zoom, Ram) you have the weights on that's what it sounds like. Any concern with the larger diameter? Kel has suggested that the larger diameter will not respond as well as the smaller.

I'd like to know which models you are considering as it looks like I've been poking around the same places. I've also heard some guys on another site (ffcars.com) that like both Ram and Spec. They are running them in a spec racer Factory Five *obra replica kit car w/ lower power (230hp) 302 EFI similar to the stock RA cars. Guys are also using them on higher power street car versions.

Rich

The term junk is what they are The starting ring moves an 1/8" in both directions and steel clutch ring is scratched the pressure palte is no better. I won't even give it to anyone. I have the paper work at the shop and will get it Monday. I will be able to tell you how it works next week end. We will be running at Nelson Ledges the fastest 2 mile road track in the US.

[Rich F]

Jim
Sorry to hear your stuff was that bad. Hopefully you find a reasonable way through and get back together soon.

I did get another call from Quartermaster today as promised. They told me that my flywheel was in good shape. My clutch and pressure plate were weak but not shot.
The single disc is rated up to 400 hp which would and should not last in our cars in the 430 to 440 hp or higher (Brian) range.

Dave suggested and upgrade to a double disc 8.5 V-extreme which allows me to keep my flywheel and smaller diameter clutch. He suggested that this unit should last a couple of seasons for me which would equate to 40 track and or race days (10 2 day events per season) total.

He suggested an e-bay sale for the old clutch and thought I could get $75-$100 for it.

I ordered the replacement clutch and hydraulic slave / throw out bearing.

If any of you are not sure what to do, talk Dave K out there. He was extremely helpful and it took them less than a day to test my stuff (no cost) and set me up with a pretty good deal on the package. I should have my parts next week and be back on track by the weekend.

I'll post up again after I get things set up and on the track.

Rich

[Jim woodruff]

Originally Posted by Rich F

Jim
Sorry to hear your stuff was that bad. Hopefully you find a reasonable way through and get back together soon.

I did get another call from Quartermaster today as promised. They told me that my flywheel was in good shape. My clutch and pressure plate were weak but not shot.
The single disc is rated up to 400 hp which would and should not last in our cars in the 430 to 440 hp or higher (Brian) range.

Dave suggested and upgrade to a double disc 8.5 V-extreme which allows me to keep my flywheel and smaller diameter clutch. He suggested that this unit should last a couple of seasons for me which would equate to 40 track and or race days (10 2 day events per season) total.

He suggested an e-bay sale for the old clutch and thought I could get $75-$100 for it.

I ordered the replacement clutch and hydraulic slave / throw out bearing.

If any of you are not sure what to do, talk Dave K out there. He was extremely helpful and it took them less than a day to test my stuff (no cost) and set me up with a pretty good deal on the package. I should have my parts next week and be back on track by the weekend.

I'll post up again after I get things set up and on the track.

Rich

Rich, Yes I am concerened about the reaction time of the larger 10." clutch. I needed to get my car back on the road for the balance of the season quickley. I will be able to tell the difference Sat. if it is too slow I will jump back to the smaller Quatermaster unit during the long winter months.