Starting problem when hot

[fhofstra]

The trusty Intrigue has developed a new problem: when it is a very hot day, and also the engine is hot, I have trouble starting.
Anytime the engine is cold, or even just warm from short running or having had time to cool down some, starting is perfect, within half a second or so.
But lately, in this hot weather, and when the engine is really hot (within a short time of turning it off), when I turn the key, the starter cranks the engine for just a fraction of a second, then the starter pinion disconnects (I assume) and I can hear the whine as the pinion gear spins fast, disconnected from the flywheel teeth. I can repeat this, with the same results each time.
A day or so ago, when this happened, I had to get going, so I just kept turning the key on and off rapidly, getting a fraction-of-a-second's crank each time, and managed to get the engine started, at the cost of a little pinion-gear grinding on the flywheel. I don't want to have to do that again.
The starter cranks fast, so battery and starter should be OK. It's just the disconnect of the pinion from the flywheel teeth that causes the problem.
Again, strictly with a hot engine -- never when just warm or cold.
What could cause that? Any advice? Thanks.
LittleHoov, good idea about car ID in one's signature.

[pfofit]

Originally Posted by fhofstra

.... when the engine is really hot (within a short time of turning it off), when I turn the key, the starter cranks the engine for just a fraction of a second, then the starter pinion disconnects (I assume) and I can hear the whine as the pinion gear spins fast, disconnected from the flywheel teeth.

Although it may seem like the drive is dropping out and spinning faster, The bendix drive may still be engaged, but may be slipping. It doesn't spin as fast as being dropped out and has a different sound to it than a fully disengaged drive pinion .

Since the starter continues to spin, one may assume that the pcm is not removing the solenoids voltage. It starts to turn over so the drive is engaged at that point and the only thing that can pull it back is the solenoid spring but if that happened then the starter contact would be opened as well and the starter would stop spinning.

Unless there is something funny going on in the solenoid with the lever connection then the bendix drive clutch slipping is suspect.

cheers

[dtownfb]

Are there any "Check engine" lights?

My first guess was a problem with the camshaft position sensor. I just experienced almost the exact symptoms in my minivan. Of course, the CPS would trigger a code if it was acting up that bad.

[fhofstra]

Thanks for the replies.

I'm not aware of any clutch as a part of the final starter motor-to-pinion drive shaft; pfofit are you sure there is one in that final drive? I don't think that the last starter motor I took apart, had one. That would be my brother's '54 Chevy 50 years ago :-).

In any case, I think that the sound I'm hearing is the sound of the pinion spinning at full speed, not slipping.

No, no SES or SVS lights, and no codes...

Looking at the prints, I was sorry to see the Crank Relay activation ultimately tied to the mysteries of the PCM "Crank Relay Control", but as pfofit pointed out, since the pinion continues to spin, it doesn't appear that the PCM is deactivating the Crank relay prematurely. Apparently, the PCM is doing PASSLOCK verification (pg 6-485).
But the prints do show something interesting in the solenoid: two coils, a "Pull-in" coil and a "Hold-in" coil. That "Hold-in" coil certainly sounds suspect.
I will check the forum for starting motor threads. Anyone know if the solenoid is separate from the starter motor? I'd guess not, and maybe a new starter motor isn't a bad idea.

[LittleHoov]

I don't have a FSM manual in front of me or anything, but I have experienced Passlock failures, and every single time it resulted in a no-crank situation, it does not even engage the starting circuit at all, just a dead key turn, much like a completely dead battery or ignition switch failure would. All the while with a blinking Security light.

If you suspect a Passlock issue, you should have a blinking Security light on the dash while its going on, it will be in the upper right corner of the dash cluster.

[pfofit]

Originally Posted by fhofstra

Thanks for the replies.

I'm not aware of any clutch as a part of the final starter motor-to-pinion drive shaft; pfofit are you sure there is one in that final drive?

enjoy! http://www.tpub.com/engine3/en32-93.htm

In any case, I think that the sound I'm hearing is the sound of the pinion spinning at full speed, not slipping.

That's what its sounds like until, you hear them side by side.

But the prints do show something interesting in the solenoid: two coils, a "Pull-in" coil and a "Hold-in" coil. That "Hold-in" coil certainly sounds suspect.
I will check the forum for starting motor threads. Anyone know if the solenoid is separate from the starter motor? I'd guess not, and maybe a new starter motor isn't a bad idea.

The required current for hold- in coil is a lot less and the primary coil gets shorted out by the solenoid contact once the starter is running. If its spinning then the hold in is doing it's job. It holds the contact for the starter and a lever is connected to the bendix.
The clutch is part of and built into the bendix and they and the solenoid can be had separately at certain places. Not everybody carries them anymore. Grease/lube sparingly only the spiral stater shaft the bendix slides out on and get no grease/oil around the drive mechanism. Watch out for the orientation of the pilot bearing and cupped thrust washer at the end of the housing.

[panzer dragoon]

Cps -camshaft position sensor

[fhofstra]

Thanks for the replies.
Yesterday I put in a replacement starter/solenoid assy (Autozone Duralast), and the engine has started properly, with no starting problems. Guess I will never know exactly what it was, since all the potential bad eggs get replaced in one basket, but I'm satisfied that starting is normal. Since the problem had gotten pretty solid the last few days, every time the engine was warm, I'm pretty sure this one is fixed -- half a dozen hot starts since install; every one of them good.
Next stop - radiator replacement, but that's a new thread.