Good base cars

[zudo]

Hi,

I was wondering if there was a limit to how fast you can make a certain cars go, like civics, 240sx, camaro, etc. I know you can swap out engines galore, but what is the limit to what engines you can put in? At what point is it better to just by a whole new car? If you start off with a faster car, the fastest it's able to go is faster than if you started off with a slower car?

If there is a limit, what's a good base car to start with, I looked at the recommended car thread, but most of the beginner cars seemed really... mediocre, were those recomendations just on what you should learn to race? Or what has potential to do something big with?

If there is no limit then... good for us?

[MrPbody]

The "limit" is your budget. If you don't limit your car choices to 4 and 6 cylinder models (Jap), you can go as fast as anyone ever has. On their best days, 4 or 6 do NOT "equal" 8. While there are plenty of pocket-rockets out there, they all have turbochargers or superchargers. For a fair comparison, you must use a supercharged or turbocharged V8. Once you put a power "adder" on a large V8, it is out of reach for anything less.

That being said, for a dedicated race car (one that NEVER dirves on the street), the best values today are among the GM "G-bodies". Those are the '78-'87 Grand Prix, Monte Carlo, Regal, Cutlass, Malibu, LeMans, and if you're REAL lucky, GrandAm (VERY rare).

These cars accept small block Chevy, big block Chevy and Pontiac V8s with ease (Olds too, but they aren't as good a choice). These are the three GM engine families of choice for a racer. The BBC is the most powerful and most expensive of the three. SBC is the most versatile and least expensive ("cheaper" is misleading, as there's nothing CHEAP about racing). The Pontiac is right between the two Chevys for power and cost. Plenty of good performance stuff out there today, unlike 10 years ago. If you like "big" torque at moderate RPMs, the Pontiac is the better choice.

The "Fox Body" Mustangs ('83-'91 or 2) are also VERY popular. The little Ford engines can be made to make enough power to have fun. The medium sized Fords are VERY good performers (351-400 CID range, small block). The BIG Fords are animals. The Fox body has a very good rear suspension for drag racing. It has become fashionable locally, to put small block Chevys in them. There are some rediculously fast ones with 422 or 434 CID small blocks. We have one guy with a 514 CID Lima (460-based) that is a MONSTER.

Another choice would be to watch sites like racejunk.com for good deals on cars already built, usually needing engines or other major drivetrain pieces. One can save a bunch by buying a car already built. Just make sure to take a person familiar with racers and racecars with you when you look at it. "Let the buyer beware".

Most important? Remember this is a HOBBY. Have fun and don't take yourself too seriously as a racer. If you're good, it will come out.

Jim

[Sleepr awd]

that's all fun and good, but once you hit a certain point those sbc and ford apps are no longer fun to drive, but so much of a chore that you don't want to. Im a big advocate of the sbc and newer lsx series of engines having seen a friend throw a 5.3l silverado engine in a gbody and it is a BEAUTIFUL thing The biggest things are:

What will you use it for??
when you are in a parking lot, where do your eyes go first??
what are your targets as far as kills go??

I personally chose the galant vr4. Plenty of aftermarket, though most body panels are harder to find. Its all-wheel drive which is great for the streets where slicks aren't always practical and awd is always practical rain and snow. 4cylinders which, in more modest applications, can be matched to most v8's on the street. A procharged v8 corvette running 8lbs or so should run low 11s maybe better depending on the extensiveness of the modifications. I'm now aiming for 10s with 30lbs of boost. Maybe less if it is more practical. My target car was the corvette which I think I could beat and especially from a dig where I have 2 extra wheels and boost off the line. Granted the setup isn't 100% practical for driving everyday, but that's why after a certain point you grab a beater car.
If you like ass-happy fun, you'd be more inclined to grab something rear drive, if you aren't as keen on physics and want to power your way through, a Honda might suit you. A guy with a 1.5 hatch here runs 10s and though he won't get you off the line he will catch you when he gains some momentum. Or a guy here that runs 10s off a eclipse gsx awd turbo with a setup that could make a grown man cry. Or the ford lightning with more power than reasonable on the street. S10 pickups, 240sx, dsm's, mustangs of all ages, gl vehicles in most sizes, cavaliers, saturns that could all run 13s or better.

Pick a body style, pick a target, see if is feasible, if not start over.

I might also mention a picked the gvr4 because it is almost always underestimated and cosmetically, one running 10s sounds the same as one running 12s or 13s to the untrained ear.

[CassiesMan]

Originally Posted by MrPbody

The "limit" is your budget.

This is the only part of this post you should pay attention to. The rest of it is your standard no replacement for displacement pandering while ignoring the fact that at the last Texas mile, a streetable six banger Supra went 220, 230 something. And you might wanna check out that AMS built Evo that was eating up a Procharged Corvette. And a local tuner is looking to be putting out well over a thousand horsepower with zero pistons. It has nothing to do with I4/F4 vs I6/V6/F6 vs V8 vs V10 vs V12. It is personal preference.

So, now that we have that out of the way...

The reasons that the "first car" thread seem mediocre is because if its your first car, you have no fucking clue what you are doing. You can argue that you've been driving on "relative xyz's" farm till your blue in the face, it doesn't matter. You will get into an accident, shit will break, and you will be in highschool and it will be miserable to fix. Been there done that got the teeshirt.

They all suck as base cars so that you can have a general idea on how to drive without killing yourself and slowly build into power.

[Gotian]

Get whatever you set your mind on. My first car was a '92 diamante, a nice luxy car and it was great for a first car. After that I stepped it up and got a '94 celica and then replaced that with my '02 jetta 1.8t. i've done a few mods but nothing major. I wanted to completely deck it out but then i realized, why? it's already quick enough to pass 80% of the cars that i will run into on a daily basis. And besides the more you mod a car the more attention you need to give in to keep it running.

[MrPbody]

Fellas,

Relax. Your mega-buck (make sure you explain just how much MONEY it takes to get a 6 to run like you describe) Jap cars run fine. The category here is RACING, not STREETING... And save your "They aren't THAT expensive" argument. I build engines (including Mitsis and Toys) for a living. They ARE that expensive.

Every time someone asks about an entry-level race car, I recommend what is easiest and least expensive for a learning tool. Invariably, someone calls me out on this stuff. I go to the track about 20 times a year, between customers, shows and own-stuff "fun". The ricers are outnumbered 20 to 1 and seldom win ANYTHING. That's why they keep to themselves and have their own sanctioning body, which, BTW, bans all American made 8 cylinder engines, and some of the better running 4s and 6s. See, we don't race magazines, we race CARS. Not unlike the Patriots against the Giants, you must actually run the race! And understand, if built to the same level as that 230 MPH Supra, a V8-powered Camaro will go near 300 (TA/FC). Yes, I've seen the NOPI stuff and their high 6 second times. I've also seen the NHRA "Sport Compact" FWD 4-cylinder American cars go deeper into the 6s.

And you're right. There IS no replacement for displacement. For the same money one can build a monster Toyota 6 (7-800 HP range) that may complete 20 passes down the 1/4 mile before it burns or breaks something, one can build a BBC that makes the same power, for YEARS. Turbos and nitrous wreak havoc on the longevity of an engine. That 1,000 HP Toyota you speak of costs more to build than a Brad Anderson Hemi... A BA Hemi makes about 8,000...

This was not intended as a "mine is better than yours". It is to help educate a newbie without clouding his mind with a bunch of pie-in-the-sky. Of course, if he DOES have an extra 30 or 50K lying around, he could jump in at the highest level... Gimme a break and stop rationalizing your own choices.

Jim

[Sleepr awd]

seeing as how he was looking at 240s civics and camaros, I really doubt he'll ever do anything further than 13s, which realistically can be done with any car on the road without a whole lot of effort.

That's why I encouraged him to pick a car he likes
then see if what he wants out if it is feasible

The legitimate drag racing scenario is completely different than hobbyists with tuners and domestics. Since he was talking about lower end street cars, I think it is safe to assume he is using those cars on the street. And while you are speaking so highly of the times a BBC or other domestic produces, you miss the fact that he may want to drive this thing to work. Iirc a carb'd BBC doesn't get anywhere near a modest mpg. And while there is no replacement for displacement, people will try and succeed with other options available.

I might also point out that if you wanted to make things "fair" we'd be living in a communist society and your arguments would no longer be valid. Its all up to what the individual wants to do and everyone likes or wants something a little different than the next. The individual can then compare and make up his own mind on what he wants to run whether it be a geo metro or your 8,000 hp monster

The "pie in the sky" scenario does apply here and I think its important to not limit this person to the closedminded domestic elitest bullcrap that every redneck in America swears by. And I'm not saying my stuff is greater or anything, but my niche is different and someone has to love the "fat chick" of the automotive world. Its not the fastest, no. But it could scare a BBC guy into putting real effort into his 454 he thought was "fast" running 12's. And that is all I really want to do.

And for the record I might mention I won't have more than 4,000 in the car including original purchase when I have it going for the summer.

Might also mention that people that say "if you turbo'd or supercharged the v8 it'd win" when the fact is they didn't and we out in the real world call that a ricer excuse

[CassiesMan]

Originally Posted by MrPbody

Fellas,

Relax. Your mega-buck (make sure you explain just how much MONEY it takes to get a 6 to run like you describe) Jap cars run fine. The category here is RACING, not STREETING... And save your "They aren't THAT expensive" argument. I build engines (including Mitsis and Toys) for a living. They ARE that expensive.

If money is an issue, then you are in the wrooooong hobby. End of story.

Every time someone asks about an entry-level race car, I recommend what is easiest and least expensive for a learning tool. Invariably, someone calls me out on this stuff. I go to the track about 20 times a year, between customers, shows and own-stuff "fun". The ricers are outnumbered 20 to 1 and seldom win ANYTHING.

You've obviously never been to the track in an import. Basically, what happens is, we show up, and we get booed and told to go home because we don't need 15Liters to go fast. Then we run a fast time, and we are told we cheat or got lucky or whatever. So ya, we tend not to show up because of the hasle that inbred rednecks dish out is just not worth it at times.

That's why they keep to themselves and have their own sanctioning body, which, BTW, bans all American made 8 cylinder engines, and some of the better running 4s and 6s.

Then it wouldn't be an IMPORT leauge if they had American cars, would it? Logic>j00

See, we don't race magazines, we race CARS. Not unlike the Patriots against the Giants, you must actually run the race!

And I do run the race, and I do win.

And understand, if built to the same level as that 230 MPH Supra, a V8-powered Camaro will go near 300 (TA/FC).

I have never seen a Camaro run 300mph. Ever. Especially not in the same class (street class) that the aformentioned Thommy Bahn Supra was running. Your telling me that a Camaro witha 3.4L I6 and big turbo will run 230mph from a standstill in under a mile. You are an idiot. The only cars that were running with him were Twin Turboed V10 Vipers. The cars running faster were in a purpose built class.

Yes, I've seen the NOPI stuff and their high 6 second times. I've also seen the NHRA "Sport Compact" FWD 4-cylinder American cars go deeper into the 6s.

Good for them.

And you're right. There IS no replacement for displacement. For the same money one can build a monster Toyota 6 (7-800 HP range)

What kind of engine builder are you? You can get about 700 crank on a Poopra on the stock internals with new fuel system. A monster Supra will have more than 1k at the wheels.

that may complete 20 passes down the 1/4 mile before it burns or breaks something, one can build a BBC that makes the same power, for YEARS. Turbos and nitrous wreak havoc on the longevity of an engine.

Might wanna call Woon or Kean or the guys at Titan and let them know that...

That 1,000 HP Toyota you speak of costs more to build than a Brad Anderson Hemi... A BA Hemi makes about 8,000...

How much does one cost? From Boostlogic, their top of the line 3.4L Stroker 2JZ, fully built turnkey, capable of 1500+ ponies, is 13k. Oh, and as a hopeful future Supra owner, I take great pride that you have to use a fully built top fule race motor to shoot down a 3.4L Streetable six cylinder.

This was not intended as a "mine is better than yours". It is to help educate a newbie without clouding his mind with a bunch of pie-in-the-sky. Of course, if he DOES have an extra 30 or 50K lying around

Pie in the sky? Are you fucking kidding me? Do you have any clue on how cheap it is to make an import fast? Just as cheap as any domestic. Listen, your the person that screws it up and clouds minds. There is just as much room in my dream garage for a 77 Trans Am as there is for a 98 Supra Turbo as there is for a TT C6 Z06 as there is for a three rotor race ported FD with a big turbo as there is for a Murcielago as there is for a 997 Turbo. All cars can, and will, be fast with the right touch. I'm telling the OP that if he wants to kick ass and take names, he can do it just as well at the same cost as your beloved Big Blocks.

Gimme a break and stop rationalizing your own choices.

No. You stop rationalizing yours. Mine was perfectly rationalized when I lined up against a Mustang GT, with a full fucking TWICE the displacement of my motor, RWD, designed for drag racing, and I whuped his ass with just an intake.

Jim

Rob

[Sleepr awd]

Funny story. For some reason I forgot drag was a STYLE of racing and not the culmination of all of racing. Who is this guy to be talking anyways?? I've seen dumb rednecks build small blocks and big big blocks. Iirc imports take talent to build because the have tighter specs. I'm thinking you need to send those import guys to a real builder. That is since you can't get an engine to hold together.

Cassie. That right there is what I've been waiting for.

And cassie, the 67 camaro is hotter than the 77

[CassiesMan]

Originally Posted by Sleepr awd

cassie. That right there is what I've been waiting for.

There is an understated elegance in my anger and it tends to manifest itself in these posts, lol.

Or, you could say, my Kung Fu was stronger than his. Either way. I do appriciate the use of my fat chick analogy with your own DSM, though.

And cassie. The 67 camaro was way hotter than the 77.

I've always sorta been a second gen guy. But you'll note that it was a 77 Trans Am...black...T-tops...flaming chicken on the hood.

[Sleepr awd]

Uhh iirc it went like this

you said that owning a dsms was like being a fat chick and having sex. Mostly because you never know if they will run again.

I said evo and galants are like having sex with fat chicks cuz you can't tell if they will put out and you may get the ride of you life. Btw edited last post

I may still have gotten the analagy from you, but I can't remember.

[CassiesMan]

Originally Posted by Sleepr awd

Uhh iirc it went like this

you said that owning a dsms was like being a fat chick and having sex. Mostly because you never know if they will run again.

I said evo and galants are like having sex with fat chicks cuz you can't tell if they will put out and you may get the ride of you life. Btw edited last post

I may still have gotten the analagy from you, but I can't remember.

Indeed sir, you are correct. My DSM fat chick comaparo was a spin off of yours. And nice edit.

[zudo]

So... From what I understand, the limiting factor is the engine, and what you can throw on it (turbos, super chargers, etc). And what limits the engine is the body, right?
So after you max out a car, you'd either have to replace the engine or get a new car to be faster?

[Sleepr awd]

yeah pretty much. Unless you are awesome at fabricating and engineering you are limited as far as drivetrain and what fits.

What are you using the car for anyway??

Might mention that you can rarely "max out" a car

[GForce957]

I dont see why the hell we are talking about BBC's and Supra's making 1500 hp. This is most probably his first car, get a 240 or 5.0 stang or whatever else you like import or domestic, mod it as much as you want, can afford, and your skill allows you to drive and call it a day. Then down the road when you have surpassed your previous abilities, get something better.

End of story.