93 accord failed Calif smog tests - 911

[Pawl]

NO (ppm) 15 mph 701 is max and car showed 1169 and at 25 mph 730 is max and car showed 1041. Owner of test facilty showed me how on his vacuum gauge with motor running it starts to draw a vacuum upon acceleration but then it drops off after a couple of seconds. He says something is bad or leaking. I have fixed many things on cars but I am new at this.I live in the Long Beach Calif area. First of all does anybody know what might be wrong and secondly does anyone know of someone in my area with expertise in fixing this. I know this is a longshot but I have nothing to lose before I have to pay big bucks. Thanks

[mpumas]

There are tests to determnine the problem. It could be plugged ports into the intake from the exhaust gas runner which is fed from the EGR valve, the EGR valve, the vaccum hose to the EGR valve, the solenoid valve which activates the EGR valve, the hose from the solenoid valve to the intake or the ECU. Most likely it is caused by plugged ports. The first test involves hooking up a vacuum pump to the EGR valve and pulling 8 inches of vacuum. That should open the valve. The vacuum should not bleed off . If it does, you probably have a leaky diaphram in the EGR valve. Next start the engine and pull a vacuum on the EGR valve. The engine should start running rough and then die. If it doesn't, then you have plugged ports. Do these tests and tell us what you found and we will help you further.

[Pawl]

I have to get a vacuum gauge today. FYI - I was not exactly sure what was going on with the car with the explanation given to me by the mechanic who smog tested my car. But after reading your post and my Haynes Manual a couple of times regarding the EGR valve check and EGR control solenoid check I understand how to do these tests. I will post my results when I find a vacuum gauge and test things.
The smog guy is a friend of mine who was trying to explain to me what the problem might be. I am not exactly sure how things occurred when he showed me so I will have to test it again now that I have a better understanding of what I am looking for. He took the hose off the EGR valve,connected it to his gauge and I think I remember seeing the vacuum on the gauge dropping while he was increasing the RPM. He also pumped up the gauge and it would not hold the vacuum, plus I did not hear the engine try to stall. With that in mind he did not tell me he thought the EGR valve might be bad.This car has 158,000 miles and I don't know if this is the original EGR valve.
I am in Calif and one of the things the smog tester gave me was a form from the state that my daughter can fill out because she owns the car. Her income is less than $22,000 a year which would qualify her for the state assistance to furnish the repairs up to $500 and her share would be $20. But after reading the form the state wants the income of all the people in the same household she lives in which would not qualify us for this assistance. And lastly when you sign the form the state reminds the signee that if you are lying you are in deep trouble. With that in mind I have enough problems with the car right now without the state breathing down my neck.
I appreciate what my mechanic is doing for me trying to get the state to fix it but I think it would be fairly easy for them to just check a database and find me living there at the same address with a healthy income. Please read on because there is a point to these last two paragraphs.
It seems to me that with what I just told you about what he initially did with his vacuum gauge to explain to me that there was a problem the fact that the EGR valve would not hold a vacuum nor did the engine stall is the problem? What do you think?
Also when you are saying a port is plugged up do you mean it is just not opening because the EGR valve or solenoid is not working correctly. And once again when I start testing the system if the EGR valve doesn't hold a vacuum and the engine doesn't stall I would have to think the valve needs replacement. If that is true and I replace it I would almost think I have solved the problem and the car should pass unless there are additional problems with the emission system. The frustrating part is the car runs fine right now so you can't tell if its fixed until it is tested.But the tests for the EGR valve are simple and if it won't hold vacuum and won't stall it would seem it needs to be replaced.

[somick]

Hey, Pawl!

Do not spend money if you are going to get somebody to fix it and then apply for a help from state!
I have been in your shoes. Failed a smog test, panicked, spent thousand dollars and THEN, applied for state's help. BIG MISTAKE! So, if you decide to go this way make sure you are approved by state and then spend your money. I unfortunately cannot give you a legal advise on how to deal with state's help but from what I remember, my income was much higher than 22,000 but I still was eligible for money. Try to do some research. Call the hot-line, they may give you a good advise.

Now about your EGR.

EGRs themselves rarely go bad. The ports on this year's Honda do get clogged. Try to do some reading on www.tegger.com. As far as I remember he has tons of information about about how to clear EGR ports.

If you are not able to find tegger's site, let me know. I have some files on this topic but cannot attach them here (cheap automotive forum). E-mail me at libman_sAThotmail and I will send them to you.

Good luck,
Sam

[Pawl]

I pulled a vacuum of 8 Hg inches with no leak,made the engine start to stall with vacuum gauge drawing a vacuum.My Haynes manual describes trouble shooting the EGR control solenoid. I had two jumper wires connected to the seperate battery posts on my car. I made sure they worked by jumping a test light with the two wires with success. The manual says to disconnect the 4 pin connector (my car only has 3 connectors) from the control box and check for battery voltage on the black/yellow terminal on the harness. With the ignition turned on I found voltage at the connector.
The next step which is checking to see if the EGR vacuum solenoid is working said to reconnect vacuum gauge to the vacuum hose,start engine and idle.I connected the hot jumper wire to the A terminal on the 4 pin connector or in my case a 3 pin connector. While observing the vacuum gauge I ground terminal B with the other jumper wire and saw no vacuum increase. The manual says it should increase in vacuum within one second. I tried other combinations to make sure in case I was touching the wrong connectors and nothing. There are only so many combinations and then your done.
I have a brother who lives in Arizona and has a 1991 Accord he is working on but they dont have smog testing but the car has a EGR control solenoid on it. He has offered to send it to me in the mail and see if it works. If it does I can send him my old one because even though it doesn't work he has no test to worry about. Auto Zone wants $229 for one.Is it simple to pull off the EGR control solenoid? Is there anything to replace when he pulls it off? Gaskets? What do you think of my plan and does it sound like a solenoid to you? Thanks

[mpumas]

For that year car, you should have been required to do a TEST ONLY smog check. If it fails, there is no income limits to qualify for help but you must be prepared to fork over the first $100. to get $500 help.

If you think you have a EGR solenoid problem, one way to check the whole vacuum circuit is to disconnect the hose to the EGR valve, Then drive the car to see if you get a CEL code 12 Reset the ECU and hook up the hose then drive for a couple miles. If you don't get a CEL code 12, it means the ECU is calling for the EGR valve to open so it grounds one side of the EGR solenoid seniding vacuum to the EGR valve opening it. A sensor on top of the EGR detects the valve opening and sends a signal to the ECU. If ECU doesn't get this signal, it pops a code 12.

[Pawl]

mpumas - I have had 2 1993 LX's and a 1993 EX the last 5 years and was never required to go to a Test Only smog center. Is it possible to find out if the state will test it and fix it according to what your saying? I would gladly hand over the first $100 if they can fix it under $500.
FYI - car currently has 158,000 miles on it. On 10-20-2007 with 150,000 miles on it barely passed. Back then NO (ppm) @ 15 mph max was 701 and car measured 669 (In 2009 it is 1169),@ 25 mph max was 730 and car measured 727 (In 2009 it is 1041).
Additional information - my brother has a complete control box he is going to send me from a 1991 Accord he owned that was totaled and he parted it out. Until it arrives I can try the test you just mentioned and see if the code 12 is either in there now or it shows up. With this car should I be getting some kind of check engine light on the dash for any of these problems because it has not displayed one yet or do I just have to retrieve it myself out of the ECU?
What do you think of the tests I did trouble shooting the solenoid that came from the Haynes Manual? I thought if I cannot find the problem before the other control box arrives I can hook it up and run the Haynes test for the solenoid and see if I come up with a different result. As you know part of the problem in knowing if anything is fixed is that the car runs fine right now and if I have solved the problem can only come from running these tests I am doing and hoping I am doing it right. It is not rocket science but if I get a different (positive) response with my brothers control box versus not getting anything now I would think the solenoid was the problem. I appreciate everyones help. I will post my results ASAP. I have posed several questions here and I hope I can get some more answers as far as what I am suggesting. My daughter is driving this car and I have to get it back here each time I work on it.

[ctmoore79]

My 96 Accord was having issues and throwing a code relating to the EGR valve a couple of years ago. I found the following article while trying to fix the issue. I had already replaced the EGR valve and that did not fix the problem. After cleaning the EGR runners the car has run better and had no more EGR valve related codes. I know this is not the exact problem you are having but it is an easy job and inexpensive as well.

http://autorepair.about.com/library/faqs/bl053c.htm

[mpumas]

Plugged ports will not cause a code 12 because the ECU is calling for the EGR valve to open and the EGR sensor is saying it is opening. But the exhaust gas is not getting into the intake manifold like it should. If in fact the EGR valve is opening, and based on your test numbers, I would place my money on plugged or partially plugged ports on a car with 158K miles. It is not a hard fix if you can get the required port plugs. On some cars they did not use push in plugs but instead screw-in plugs were used.

If you failed on a reqular smog test, then income limits apply to get the state to help.

[Pawl]

I will look to see if I have the screw type plugs or the push plugs. These plugs remind me of the soft plugs in the engine blocks we used to replace in the old chevys when we were kids. Probably are but just a smaller diameter.I was reading some articles regarding how to do this.I am going to call around and see if I can find any of these kits they are talking about. These articles are old so I don't know if these kits are available.If not I will try to buy the plugs and O rings seperately. I actually have these flexible snakes I bought online from someone a couple of years ago to clean out the passages.They are 12 to 18 " long. My smog guy told me to use oven cleaner and I went online and found these snakes in 3 different lengths that cleaned the passages enuff at the time for the car to pass the smog test. Now I have an understanding of what I am trying to accomplish with a picture of it in my head. Now I have to improvise and fabricate as needed and make us all proud.
Lastly, like I said earlier and if you read the NO numbers I posted earlier I just barely passed on the tests two years ago so I bet I just cleaned the passages out just enuff to get a passing grade which might work again but I dont want to keep doing this every two years so I will try and clean these passages out good. I am retired and I have an extra car to drive while I do this. I wonder once I get the plugs out if the oven cleaner will be an adequate solution to try and dissolve the deposits.

[mpumas]

In most cases, the ports are plugged just below the removable plug where it enters the intake manifold. I used a small drill bit mounted on a 1/4 in rod and just hand twisted the bit in to open the port. I wouldn't use oven cleaner. In extreme cases you might need to remove the other two plugs and clean those ports. The new plugs are like small cups that are pushed into the hole with the botttom side up.

[Pawl]

mpumas - I used a small drill bit mounted on a 1/4 in rod and just hand twisted the bit in to open the port.<<<< could u expand on this a little more. I know there is more than one way to skin a cat and your method is different than what I have read in some of the articles. I just don't completely understand what you are saying. A small drill bit mounted on a 1/4 in rod? <--- Are you saying just something small enough to get a an opening in the plug and working it back out? Are you just drilling in to the plug just enuff to get a bite on it and then backing it out? Once you have the plug out what are you using to clean the passages? Will the 18 inch snake I have do the trick? Some of the articles I have read discuss using a vacuum to collect all the metal shavings from drilling. Some discuss removing the EGR valve and vacuuming thru that opening while loosing up the carbon thru the opening where the plug is. One article discussed opening the plug at the far end on the drivers side and cleaning it horizonally as well. How many plugs do you yourself remove on these cars? Thanks - Paul

[mpumas]

Read the following:
http://autorepair.about.com/library/faqs/bl053c.htm

I prefer to use a drill bit mounted on the 1/4 in rod rather then the coat hanger mentioned. I drilled a hole in the bottom of the rod to the size of the bit and inserted the bit. Then I used a set screw to hold the bit in the rod. I turned the rod by hand and vacummed out the residue. The article talks about the total no of plugs and how to get them out and the replacement parts.

The horizontal runner may be plugged and that can be determined by back blowing from the holes you just cleaned towards the EGR valve or it could be the ports under the other 2 plugs. Remove the plugs and see if they are clear. If not clean them the same was as the others.

The only metal shaving will be from drilling and taping the plugs so you can remove them. A vacuum will clean up the shavings before you remove the plugs. There should be no metal shavings from cleaning out the ports into the intake manifold.

[Pawl]

Mpumas -. Are these EGR Plug Replacement Kits easy to find? And does the slide hammer actually come with the kit? When I am reading the information the way it is worded it leads me to believe it comes with the kit.

[mpumas]

Honda does not sell a kit. The plugs are sold individually. The slide hammer is the same as a dent puller but instead of a hook, it has a screw installed at the tip, usually sheet metal. If you tap the hole in the plug, the sheet metal screw may work or you will need to replace it with a screw of the same size as the tap. It doesn't take much to pull the plugs but the location and the fact that it is flush with the manifold requires the use of a puller. I made mine using a foot of 5/16 allthread, a couple of nuts and a weight with a hole big enough for the allthread. I mounted the screw at the end of the allthread with one of the nuts and a drilled threaded plug to keep the screw inside the nut. It would be so much easier to use pictures but I don't know how to do that.