Bare B16 block..need ideas..

[Whtehnda93DXSdn]

OK I got a bare block JDM B16 and I'm going to build it up to eventually run a turbo set up. I need to get crank rods pistons and all. I have to get a head for the block as well.

I was wondering if anyone had any idea of what internals and all I should get and maybe which head to put on it. Jus tthe B16 or B18 or what..

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated...:frog: :frog: :frog:

[civickiller]

it depends on how much money you have, and how much boost you plan on runnin. first let us know this info then we can help you better

[Whtehnda93DXSdn]

boost would probalby be only in the range of like 15-20 Max as for $ i have priced quite a few things and the amounts can vary so I don;t think that the $ portion is that much of an issue. I just want some info that I can use and look into as for building it.

I wouldn;t think that would be to complex or hard to have provided. I mean besides doing the porting and polishing to it and all that's just basic...

[civickiller]

i would suggest just buying a premade block. like short blocks from www.jgenginedynamics.com they sell blocks that suppose to handle over 30 psi. they also sell heads. probably cost about $4500 maybe alittle more


its a hella alot easier than trying to buy all the parts and do all the machining one at a time. might as well save up and get everything once

[Fishcat37]

As far as what head to put on the block... Between the B16A block and the B18C1 block- i would get the B16A head because it flows better. The B16B CTR head flows the best, costs probably the most.......and is the best overall....the ITR is really good too. But if money is an issue.....then I would just get a JDM 1st gen B16A head and swap out the cams for some CTRs or at least some GSRs or 2G B16 cams. just my $.02 tho

[Whtehnda93DXSdn]

thanks for the input keep it coming...:frog:

[YOUNGSTER]

id get a jgeldelbrock b16b head and intake manifold get the mani ported take some ctr pistons and some crower rods and if you dont have a crank shaft get an eagle or some better crank id look around and ecu . wiring harness and there you go

[Dweezil6969]

if your starting with a bare block the first thing should be to sleeve it to hold the boost you want. the next thing i would do is get a stroker kit to bump up the displacement. while i was waiting for that i would order a head and a full set of arp studs. when i got the block back i'd paint it and start preping for assembly. just go from there and have fun.

[MadScientist]

Yo, I am not a Honda Tech or a Honda Owner, my girlfriend is !!
So, she suggested:
1. Cryo(freeze) the Block... cheeper than sleeving, if you can find a place to do it.
2. Spoon 1800cc Stroker Kit (Cryo also)
3. Toda or AEBS for the Head B18
4. Toda Exhaust Manifold 4-2-1 w/ 2.5 end pipe (Sweet)
5. Damn, I cant type as fast as she was talkin... oh well... ummmm.
I would suggest a Spoon Engine Assy. from www.automotiveforums.com but a Turbo may blow the Engine (11.3:1 Compresion is seriously to much for a Turbo)
Peace
Drew
www.automotiveforums.com

[b16a3sol]

freezing the block will do nothing, as you would know if you had taken any sort of chemistry class. the only way for something to change is if you give it energy, not take it away. the best thing to do change metal and make it stronger is to anneal it. this involves getting it to the melting point, then quickly cooling it down. this introduces a good amount of defects in the metal which creates strength by impeding the slippage of the planes of atoms. freezing the block on the other hand, will not change the properties of the metal at all, except for making it more brittle since the metal is no longer maleable because all of the energy has been removed. sleeving is the only way to go if you want to strengthen the block, since it changes the materials in the block, as opposed to trying to modify the existing ones. the reason freezing is cheaper is because liquid nitrogen is cheap, and it doesnt give any results.

isnt college great...

[texan]

Originally posted by b16a3sol
freezing the block will do nothing, as you would know if you had taken any sort of chemistry class. the only way for something to change is if you give it energy, not take it away. the best thing to do change metal and make it stronger is to anneal it. this involves getting it to the melting point, then quickly cooling it down. this introduces a good amount of defects in the metal which creates strength by impeding the slippage of the planes of atoms. freezing the block on the other hand, will not change the properties of the metal at all, except for making it more brittle since the metal is no longer maleable because all of the energy has been removed. sleeving is the only way to go if you want to strengthen the block, since it changes the materials in the block, as opposed to trying to modify the existing ones. the reason freezing is cheaper is because liquid nitrogen is cheap, and it doesnt give any results.

isnt college great...

Well actually, you're wrong. Cryogenic parts treatment has been around for several years and is a proven science, though any really noticable benefits on an aluminum block are lost on me. Do an internet search on this and you'll find plenty of info on austentite formation and lack of martensite conversion at room temperature quenching, especially on high carbon alloy steel (aka tool steel). It's helpful to a lesser degree on most metals though.


Back to the topic, a stock B16 (part # PR3) head will work just fine for moderately boosted duty. The secret is in the internals and the turbo setup, and there's really no mystery here at all. Forged pistons just north of 9:1 compression with either Crower or econo Eagle rods will work fantastically, no other block prep is needed IMO for under 400 hp. Get anything other than a Rev Hard 2c turbo kit and I'll slap you, as for under $3000 you'll be making enough power to spin 3rd gear without problems. And yes, this is identical to the setup a friend of mine used to run on his B16 that took out Ferrari 355's in a straight line. Of course his also ran stock internals, boosted from 12-20 psi daily, and lasted 2 years before an unfortunate fuel injector problem fried a cylinder. The B16 is much more durable, even in stock form, than people give it credit. All you need is some basic parts and a good tune and you'll be making very respectable power numbers, and running 12's down the 1320.

[b16a3sol]

as far as i can tell, texan, my opinion on the situation is not too far wrong, as is taken from this website: http://www.onecryo.com/onecryo/cryogenic-tempering.htm , which sounds exactly like what you were telling me. you through a lot of scientific words at me, but failed to leave out this paragraph.

"In summary, cold treatment originally was used on hardened steels to promote transformation of retained austenite. The reasons were to minimize dimensional changes and cracking that could occur if the austenite were to transform in service. Over the years, additional benefits of cold treating of hardened steels have been reported, namely, improved life of cutting and forming tools. These latter claims have not been as widely accepted as the former because they greatly exceed the expectations of many metallurgists and are not obtained consistently. For similar reasons, claims of improved life of copper resistance welding electrodes are not widely accepted. Nonetheless, despite the lack of widespread acceptance and the lack of understanding of how cold treatment can change properties, the process continues to be used for the purpose of improving tool performance. "

cooling tools with liquid nitrogen seems to work for people, but there is no evidence to prove it. the people that the article talks about, are all doing it because they heard that it helps. whether they are actually seeing results or not is a matter of opinion, that nobody seems to be able to justify either way. i dont deny that the properties are changed when they metal is cooled, but to what extent and whether it is beneficial or not is where i start to disagree.

back when napoleon was off battling, he gave his army tin armor and weapons. in the cold cold mountains, this tin changed properties and became white tin, which was very brittle. this subsequently caused him to lose because the swords and armor were shattering whenever they hit anything. this is a form of cold-treating metal, which didnt work out at all.

if cold-treating a metal was worth the effort, it would be used by most of the larger tool producers, especially considering how cheap it is to use. the companies would quit coating their tools, and start cold-treating them instead, because as the article states, its cheaper. plus any tool can have it done, if its been heat-treated before, meaning the companies could take the old tools and treat them for the customer, sounds like a great way to make money to me.

my other point still stands that cold-treating the block is a waste of time and money, which we at least agree on.

[texan]

That's fine, I just wanted you to take a look at the cryo industry to see that there is scientific value to the process. BTW, that article is over 16 years old and fails to cite any specific data for it's conclusions, prefering instead to use perceived benefits as a quantitative form of measure. I don't like that at all, instead I prefer to use newer and real data to evaluate a process. Either way, metallurgy has certainly improved in the last decade or so, and cryo treatment is an accepted form of specific strenght improvement in some cases. Of course it does not allow you to use any alloy you choose, nor does it negate the benefit/need of other specific metal treatments or coatings. It's merely another nuance in the continuing progress of metal manipulation. Here's an engineering website that DOESN"T offer cryo treatment as a business and very simply states it's scientific validity.

At any rate yes, cryo treatment of aluminum, especially for this purpose, seems completely useless.


Ps- A manufacturing plant I have done some work with down the road uses cryo treatment on most of their tool steel, from broaches to bits to milling blades, and is happy with the outcome. They claim reduced failure rates, on the order of about 2x longer life from a given tool bit. Many racing teams use cryo treated iron brake rotors, and have also found increased fatigue resistance over time. Like I said, it's just another thing that can help, given the specific benefits are for your application.

[MadScientist]

So basically I was, and was not, wrong!!
In light of this infomation provided above, I feel as though I shold retract my last suggestions on Cryo. How do you guys feel about JetHot or Thermal Coating?? I would say only the Pistons and Valves. Also the option of Shot Peening the cylinder walls, as an alternative for strength. Oh yeah...I have a B.S. in Industrial Design
I also own Rare Trick.
Peace
Drew
www.automotiveforums.com

[b16a3sol]

well i hadnt heard of cryo treating metal, especially blocks before this thread, so at least i learned something new. seems like cryo as a way to go before it gets the same recognition as heat treating though, especially considering the fact that it doesnt benefit mainstream products too well.