'97 Olds Cutl Spr SL, 154K, cam, fix or junk?

[mikeohart]

Hello all. Just stumbled on this forum and am reading about what seems to be a common failure point on this 3.1 engine, injectors and cams. Wife's car has a busted cam, and I'm debating to fix or dump. I've got some opionions from a Mercedes board I frequent, which I'll share.

Any input is appreciated, TIA. Ideally, I'd wish for someone to smack me in the head and tell me a fool to dump in <3K and try to get 3-5 more years out of it. My Benz posts show intelligent arguments for keeping, which I'm leaning towards. But plenty of 'dump it' opinions too.

link to my board/post, if it's easier:
http://www.mercedesshop.com/shopforu...d.php?t=170696

--------original post-------------
Looking for opinions for anyone willing to share one. My '93 201 just turned 175K and purrs like a kitten; alas that is not the problem child in the family.

Wife's '97 Olds CS SL @154K just took a crap on a highway, engine failure. First diagnosis of injectors (surprise) superceded by discovery of busted cam. So she's facing an expensive fix or junk-it situation. This is that nasty GM 3.1 engine that's notorius for injector problems. Some facts:

Lifestyle: we live near downtown chicago, much city driving with occasional suburban jaunts. She's a social worker, in and out of rough hoods throughout the day.

Fix it argument: Highly reputable rebuilt engine can be had for $1773, 3yr unlimited miles warranty. Would have to find installation. Probably replace injectors and wires and stuff at that time as well. You have to tilt the engine to change plugs (unbelievable). So probably looking at change out of 3 dimes, and she'd have to keep the car for 3-5 more years. Rest of the car generally in decent shape. Also, $800 recent investment for new brakes all around, (discs, pads, rear calipers), which I did over the summer. She got the car for free, from her family.

Junk it argument: Many smarter than me have said this injector problem with this engine is a nightmare. If she does fix it, more recurring $$ down the road? She's gotten injectors done maybe twice in 80K miles, total cost maybe $1500. She could get a new/used car, but unless I find a private party, taxes on a mediocre $20K car would be $2K and where does that 2K go? Remember she's a social worker driving in urban chicago, so a nice car is out of the question. But I keep thinking her fixed car with a new engine @ 3K is a better option than a used d'jour @ $14K?

Was thinking of giving her my 201, then I can finally begin my hunt for a nice 124 or gasp, 126! But I don't think so. She doesn't like absence of a/c and stereo. Oh well. She worries about driving my car around because I love it so much, even though blue book is only $3K or so.

Does anyone have any strong feelings either way? I'd like for someone who really knows this engine/injector problem to tell me I'd be crazy to fix it, and it should be junked regardless. Is spending 3 dimes on this just stupid, no matter what? Cut your losses?

Another option is to let her drive my car for the winter so I have sufficient time to find a private party. Maybe a 6 month project?

Thanks in advance for any opinion!
mike

--------reply-----------
Junk it, pretty much a no brainer situation.

-------reply------------
I don't know that it is necessarily a no brainer to junk the car. The injector failure risk was a risk you were already assuming before the engine failed, so it was a risk you were already comfortable with, presumably. I don't think that should factor into your decision. You claim the car is in generally good condition, other than this engine failure. I think the question I'd first ask you is this: before the engine failed, how long were you planning on keeping this car? If you had planned to junk it in the next year or two, then I think the smart thing to do would be to accelerate your timetable and replace it now. You probably wont get your $3K back from in in a year or two, and you're still assuming the injector risk at the same time.

If you didn't have any plans to junk the car, and you really believe that mechanically it can give you another 5 years, then make the investment and fix the car. You'll get your money back if you amortize it over those 5 years. The hard truth is that you car, with a good engine, is probably only worth $3K if you were to sell it so that repair doesn't seem to make sense on its face. But it is worth $14K to you, because that is what you are prepared to spend to replace it. If you can drive it enough to get that $3K back, then spend the money.

------reply-------
It's a '97 GM product. You think fixing the injectors or engine swap is gonna be the solve? You live in Chicago and I'm pretty sure the car doesn't come with Ziebart. Doesn't do you any good if the engine falls off its mounts or your brake pedal goes trhough the floorpan.


----reply--------
changing spark plugs sucks, but I wouldnt farm it out for $300... Unblot the motor mount, and pry on the block... OR, just put some $$ ones in there on the new engine, and run them for 5 years. The engine it allready out of the car, spend another $100 on exelent quallity spark plugs, and wires.


I like GM products, cause they're CHEAP. It's extreamly easy to get parts for that car, if u need ANYTHING, I can go junkyarding for you...

how's the transmission? IF it's had good fluid maintiance, I'd keep the car.

It's a decent car, mabey you should do an L67 swap ... 3.8...

I'd keep it, and have it fixed... If you dont think you'll get much for resale, think of the depreciation on a NEW car...

I'd be half tempted to buy a GOOD $4k car, and be prepaired to spend another grand tops on it making it perfect...


-----my reply-------
Thanks for the responses so far. Some spirited opinions. 2-2 keep verus junk with good arguments both sides. Some comments and further thoughts...

-yes, comfortable with injector risk. can get professionally cleaned for $109 every 20K, can maybe last 50K before failure again?

-no intention to get a new car w/i 2-3 years unless we had to. she wants kids and a big house so she knows a Toyota Sienna is years away.

-I concur with the depreciation argument someone gave. If all she need is basic transportion, and will keep the car for 3-5 more years. A $14K mediocre used car will depreciate more than the cost if flipping the engine, IF it the flipped engine would make it 3+ more years.

-she just needs basic transportation, no lifestyle issues.

- no rusted floorboards, heck chicago only gets like 5 snows a season these days, also stored outside, so no heatup/colddown issues with corrosion

-no trans slipping at all and fluid changed once at least in the last 60K that I know she's had it.

I just can't get past the depreciation cost of getting another car. I already decided if my 102 motor or trans ever went south, gauranteed i'd get rebuilts, but this is not my car.

Thanks again for the responses so far.

-----reply-----
if it was my car i would just buy another motor and fix whats needed, granted the body is in good shape. 3k for a new motor is better than 14k plus interest plus new tag and title fees..


-----reply-----
Quote:
Originally Posted by 450slcguy
Why a $14k used car? Plenty of reliable used cars under $7k, including most MB 124's. Spending $3k on an Old's with 150k+ miles that at best is worth $2500 fixed makes no sense. She got the car for nothing and drove it for a couple of years, cut your losses and move on to something that runs good with lower mileage. How many more thousands in addition to the 3k motor job are you prepared to put into that Old's to keep it running another 3+ years?

Au contrair mon frair...

IMHO, a reliable Mercedes for less than 7k? Reliable is relative, but compare the price of parts and repair for GM vs MB. Yearly upkeep on a 124 will run close to $1000, and it will alwways be a tired car. The climate control on a MB can cost more than the cost of the rebuilt motor for the Olds.

A used car is going to have issues, and better to stick with a car you know, rather than buying someone else's problems. It's a 1997 Olds, it's not that old. No pun intended.

It's cheaper, in the long run, to fix the Olds. If you bought a 7k used car, the engine might blow in six months, after all, it's just a used car. With advent of leasing, people don't take care of cars like they used to. People will tell you that GM is junk, the other side of the coin is that they forgive MB for many sins.

Here is a great link for fuel injector service:

http://www.witchhunter.com/index.php4

They charge $15.00 per injector.



----reply------
My mom had a 96 olds Cutlass with the same peice of trash 3.1. I swear that thing eats an $80 injector every 6-12 months. Thats the best part, try getting to them! You have to remove the intake which is a cool battle! The car itself is in general a cheap POS that my sister is currantly running into the ground.

Our solution was to buy my mom a 2007 Rav4. So far the Toyota is flawless, as expected.

The trick with the back three plugs on these POS engines is to put 100K mile super platnum plugs in. Then just never change the back three, figure the car's going to die first. Plat plugs should go 150k-200k before they miss fire.

I say dump it, its a sunk ship let it die. Buy a nice Honda, or Toyota and enjoy. The new Camry is out and its an amazing car if you want to shop new.


-----reply-------
I must have been lucky. I had a 1994 Chevrolet Lumina with the 3.1L and it had 200K and still ran like new. It was a company car before however, so it saw the best service. I sold it 3 years ago and I still see it from time to time.

My mom also has a 1997 Oldsmobile SL, but an Achieva model with the 2.4L. It has 158K now and still runs like new. However, she wants an SUV now. We know the car is not worth much, as the resell value of the 90s GM cars are horrible, but it has sentimental value, because it was grandpas car. We will probably just keep it too. So, in conclusion, I would not put alot of money into your car, unless you plan on keeping it for many more years. If it is reliable in all other areas, I would fix the engine and you would be good to go for another 3 years at least (with that warranty). $1700 is better than a new $17,000 car.

Good luck!




-----reply------

[Ian Szgatti]

Its not the parts price that will get you... its the labour of course. This is a tough call I guess. One thing is, you know the car. All things concidered, you know its strong points and its weak points. Its concerning the car has had so many injector problems though.
Personally, I like any GM with a 3300 engine or a 3.8 or 3800 series (which is the next update of the 3.8). I'd say dump it. My Cutlass Ciera 1991 isn't a luxury car by any means, but it passed emmisions today with flying colors with the OD at 280,000 kms, has great oil pressure, and gets combined average of 21 MPG (reviewed new as getting 23 MPG).
I never liked the Cutlass Supremes from that year. they have the OBD 2 and a lot of electronics that arent that reliable.

Good cheap cars that last with proper care:

1. Olds Ciera 1990-1993
2. Buick Century same years
3. Chevy Celebrity
4. Buick Regal
5. Buick Park Avenue

Try for cars with either 3300, 3.8, or the 2.8 from the early 90's.
Just my .02 cents

[GTP Dad]

Ask yourself, which is cheaper New car or New engine. Personally I think you should keep the car and replace the engine. If you don't want to go to the expense of a reman engine try car-part.com to find a good used one or cherry-auto.com and they will find one for you and you can get a warranty. The labor will be the greatest cost but unless you want a huge car payment again then repair what you have and keep on driving.

[mikeohart]

Thanks for the responses so far. I'm leaning toward fixing it. The car in general and the engine in particular can be seen as a POS by many, but I can't get past the math involved. New engine+unplanned maintenance over 3-4 years might run 4 grand tops, but a 20K new/used car will depreciate a heck of a lot more than 4 grand in 4 years, plus added insurance expense. She actually likes the car. There's a chance it could go 5+ years too, why not?

[Tonglebeak]

I have an 88 Cutlass Ciera, 2.8L

I've probably invested $2300 into this car since buying it for $300.

And it runs like a champ, it's even taken down v6 mustangs. I'm getting ~20-22mpg, and has a nice sound system in it that catches a lot of people's attention (you wouldn't expect a car like that to pump out hard bass lol).

It does have a couple things coming up I need to try to take care of, such as the front left wheel bearing and power steering pump, water pump and possibly some oil components.

But this little sleeper has served me well over the past 6 months since I bought it. I'm keeping it properly maintained, and it's keeping me properly happy.

I'd say either fix the engine, or upgrade it to a 3800 SC , that's what I'd like to do with my tax refund. That or get a paint job >_>

[Ian Szgatti]

Originally Posted by Tonglebeak

I have an 88 Cutlass Ciera, 2.8L

-I've probably invested $2300 into this car since buying it for $300.

-things coming up I need to try to take care of, such as the front left wheel bearing and power steering pump, water pump and possibly some oil components.

- over the past 6 months

it better last you 5 or more years! 2600 plus another 300 in upcoming repairs, bring you to 2900, divide by 60 months, cost you about 48 bucks a month to drive.

Buying an older car is ok, but you really need to know the service history and driver habits... thats key. My vehicle was driven exclusively by the mother of an auto recycler. I got the car with over 200,000 kms on it, and I've had it for a little over a year now, and put maybe 300 in total into it. It is the best car I have ever owned. Nothing needs attention at all!

[Tonglebeak]

Granny owned this car before me, etc.

Out of the $2300, I'd say $700 of it was used to make it a bit better. Sound system, window tinting, etc (needs paint job badly though, damn copper color >_>)

Now I just need a more powerful engine and it'll be golden

[GTP Dad]

There should be an OEM performance chip for the computer of your car. The OBD1 chip is very easy to change. You may need to get one for a 2.8 cavalier Z24 or even a cadillac cimmaron. It will increase your performance just a few dollars.

[Tonglebeak]

Was that meant for me?

If so, where could I find a chip like that at? Using a chip for a different car would be safe?

Wouldn't that run for more than a "few" dollars, possibly in the hundreds?

[Ian Szgatti]

Originally Posted by Tonglebeak

Was that meant for me?

If so, where could I find a chip like that at? Using a chip for a different car would be safe?

Wouldn't that run for more than a "few" dollars, possibly in the hundreds?

If you have a "you pick it" yard nera you, small items are always free... no what i mean

[post]

Hi Mike, I currently own a 96 Cutlass Supreme,I got it as a buy back,it now has 348,000kms other thank normal wear items,this car has been outstanding.Are you mech inclined or do you have a friend who is? I have done the brakes,waterpump,gas tank,alt, on our car,pretty much straight forward stuff,if you could source a used motor from a salvage yard,have a compression test done to insure it is ok,a motor swap could be done on a weekend,my son and I have changed several motors this way,I know the rebuilt motor has a better warranty than used,but it could save you some money there.Maybe you could check local bulletin boards in your area for a mech that works on the side to help you.Just some thoughts.Good luck with what ever you do .Brad

[mikeohart]

Thanks for all the input from everyone; unfortunately I'm leaning toward junking it. I'm really torn. Part of me says troll for an '05 Camry under warranty, part of me says swap the engine ($<3K installed with new ignition parts) and try to get a few more years. I've had smart people argue it from both sides. I wish I had a ponderosa with a barn, but we're downtown chicago folks. Decisions decisions.

[jamesmetairie]

everyone failed to mention the dreaded lower intake manifold gasket job. the 3.1 is famous for springing a leak there . i owned several 3.1,s and seen it alot. the subject is entirely discussed in the lumina section of a/f. it,s about a $650. job at the average shop down south. sounds like a good used engine and a shady tree mechanic is the way for you to go. now for personal safety = i live in new orleans. do not drive nice cars in the city if you want to live. nice cars are like a big sign for car jackers.

[Ian Szgatti]

Originally Posted by jamesmetairie

now for personal safety = i live in new orleans. do not drive nice cars in the city if you want to live. nice cars are like a big sign for car jackers.

You really should be able to shoot at those guys... don't you think?

[jamesmetairie]

Originally Posted by Ian Szgatti

You really should be able to shoot at those guys... don't you think?

problem is = they often shoot first. occasionally these 14 year old crack heads walk up ,shoot the victim ,then ask for the money. go figure??for about 4 months after katrina we only had 1 murder in the whole metro area. then as thugs came back it actually looks worse then pre-katrina. and that,s really bad. the french quarter is no man,s land after midnight. side walks extremely dangerous.and i, ve been a bar hopping fool all my life.gotta adapt to survive.