black heart

[taranaki]

A supporters group for the New Zealand Americas' Cup campaign,'Black Heart' has been formed recently...one of the key elements of this group's activities will be to try to unsettle former Team New Zealand yachtsmen who have signed up to rival syndicates.Several large donations have come from the shadows of the business community to help fund the group's campaign,which is based around loyalty to one's country before loyalty to the foreign paymasters...

Is it reasonable to expect proffesional sports players to put their country of birth first,or should we just be proud of the fact that our sailors are in demand around the world?

[Moppie]

I hate the idea of most profesinal sports.
Especialy what are regarded as national games, things like Rugby and Cricket.

It takes the whole pride in playing for your country, and the idea that our team is better than yours away from the game, and simply turns it into a game of "we have more money that you nah nah nah".
And of course it has a follow on effect. Look at Australias recent white wash at the commonwealth games, all becasue per head of population they spend more money on sports trianing than any other country in the commonwealth.
Individual talent and determination are overshadowed by sports people who may have less talent, but becasue they dont have to work full time jobs, and are given the best coaching for free are able to get better results.
They stop playing sport for fun and some national pride and do it solely for the money.
The players then get turned into nothing more than race horses, and are treat and regarded in exactly the same way.
Listen to how team managers, coachs and the media talk about sports stars. Thier no longer people, and members of our country and comunity, but assests and liablities, and super hereos.
The list of negative aspects is huge, and I could fill a whole thread with them, but you get the picture.
It takes a certian chrachter away from sport, a replaces with the endless and ultimatly pointless pursuit of more money.



There are however some sports that need to be profesional, simply becasue of the level of money required to run them.
And these sports have never revolved around national or local pride.
They have always been about the success of individuals or teams regardless of where they are from.
They are the sports of Motor Racing and Yaughting.
When Ferrari wins a F1 championship they don't do it for Italy, they do it for themselves, and the fans that surrport the team come from all over the world.
Its exactly the same when a team wins the Americas cup. None of them are National teams, they may use a countrys name to drum up local surport and sponsorship, but its a Yaught club, not a country that wins the cup. And its the yaught club with the largest number of members, and the best sponsors that is then able to hire the best saliors and boat designers.
Its been this way for as long as then been sailing competition, and its the reason that no matter who wins any large international sailing competition we can always say NZ won, as there will be a Kiwi somewhere in the boat crew, or design team, or coaching etc etc.
Its not a sport that centers around national pride.
And its a sport like motorsport that requires large amounts of money to operate.

Sports like rugby and cricket on the other hand could operate for years on only a small fraction of the budget of a small Americas cup team, and the players would still be good at it, and still be entertianing to watch. You dont need to get paid millions of $ to play rugby, but you do need millions of $$ to design and build a modern yaught or Race car.

[YogsVR4]

I dont pay much attention to the Americas Cup. Like George Carlin said, "Sailing isn't a sport. Its a way to get somewhere. Riding a bus isn't a sport so why the fuck should sailing be a sport?"













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[taranaki]

Originally posted by YogsVR4
I dont pay much attention to the Americas Cup. Like George Carlin said, "Sailing isn't a sport. Its a way to get somewhere. Riding a bus isn't a sport so why the fuck should sailing be a sport?"

Easy...There are no passengers on a yacht...every man[or woman] has a part to play in keeping the craft going at its maximum capacity,in the right direction to get it to the finish line.No way is yachting like riding a bus,any more than rally driving is like calling a cab.

but back to the ethics issue....is it o.k. to harrass a guy for choosing cash over country?

[Moppie]

Originally posted by taranaki



but back to the ethics issue....is it o.k. to harrass a guy for choosing cash over country?

When its a cash based sport, and one where country of origin has very little meaning to why you are competeing then, no the guy shouldn't be harrased.

When its a game of personal and team skill that can exist regardless of money then anyone who ditchs thier country for money should be tried for treason.

[darkness]

What about the kiwi who made it into the gridiron league(NFL) in the states.

He didn't play rugby or gridiron here. He was just picked up by a scout who saw him on the street.

Is it bad that he's getting paid a million or whatever a year to play professionally in the states? Should he have stayed here and played.

I don't think the anyone should be harrassed if they chose to go overseas or to where the money is. What if they are thinking about their family in that they will get much more money overseas and be financially set. Instead of staying and getting what little money we can give them.

I think they should have stayed, but it's given other people the chance to have a go and prove themselves. And I think we've got just as much of a chance of winning as we did last time.

[taranaki]

There's a wonderful irony on that a lot of the business people who are funding this group have probably made a good deal of their money by shifting their operations overseas,putting Kiwis out of work,evading tax wherever possible and generally doing exactly the same as the sports businessmen that they are campaigning against.

[darkness]

Originally posted by taranaki
There's a wonderful irony on that a lot of the business people who are funding this group have probably made a good deal of their money by shifting their operations overseas,putting Kiwis out of work,evading tax wherever possible and generally doing exactly the same as the sports businessmen that they are campaigning against.

What a bloody good point.

I say the world is a cut-throat place, you've got to do what you can to improve your situation.

[Moppie]

Originally posted by darkness
What about the kiwi who made it into the gridiron league(NFL) in the states.

Yeah but NFL is sadly a money sport. Its like League is over here, and Rugby is rapidly becoming.
If big money wasnt poored into any of the above sports then he could have competed for NZ against the US at the same level, but instead the US puts so much money into NFL that only players who are willing to be treated like well trianed race horses are able to be competitive.

Any national or local pride in the sport is lost, and people root for teams based on who has the best marketing strategy, or public image. And the team that is able to afford the best players, and the best coachs and the best managers is the team that wins at the end of the year.

If you gave Northland the same amount of money to spend as Auckland Wellington or Cantabry spend and allowed them say 3 seasons to buy a team they would be quite capable of winning the NPC. It would have nothing to do with the skill of players from that region. Which IMO is what it should be about.

[darkness]

Originally posted by Moppie
If you gave Northland the same amount of money to spend as Auckland Wellington or Cantabry spend and allowed them say 3 seasons to buy a team they would be quite capable of winning the NPC. It would have nothing to do with the skill of players from that region. Which IMO is what it should be about.

I do agree with your statement here. Theres too much player buying/trading between regions. It should be played by the region you are from.

[YogsVR4]

Originally posted by Moppie
If big money wasnt poored into any of the above sports then he could have competed for NZ against the US at the same level, but instead the US puts so much money into NFL that only players who are willing to be treated like well trianed race horses are able to be competitive.

Actually, the US doesn't put any money into the NFL per say. The fans do. It what a free market does (at least when its allowed to) If the sport were not popular and there were few fans, that kind of money would not be available. Its to bad some folks dont want to play for the pride of their country sometimes. I imagine its like the best US players not competing in the world basketball tournement from our perspective. However, given all that, I do not disparage anyone for thinking of their familiy first. If its going to give them a better life to take the money from someone who is offering it (legitimately) then more power to them for it. Its their lives. While we enjoy chearing for them in the short term, they have to consider the long term.













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[darkness]

Originally posted by YogsVR4

I do not disparage anyone for thinking of their familiy first. If its going to give them a better life to take the money from someone who is offering it (legitimately) then more power to them for it. Its their lives. While we enjoy chearing for them in the short term, they have to consider the long term.

The exact point I was trying to make

[replicant_008]

It appears to me that none of these people are actually sailors, involved in the NZ sailing community or in the marine industry.

NZ has a history of being a little hothouse of bluewater sailing, in fact I think nearly every Volvo Ocean Race crew had a kiwi onboard - and I think 3 of the skippers (Shoebridge, Dalton and Fields) are kiwis. One of the best designers in the world, a bloke called Bruce Farr honed his craft designing skiffs for sailing in Auckland Harbor.

Part of the reason that we do have this wealth of sailing talent is that these guys can make a living doing this. NZ is too small to fund all of these guys to make a living so they sail around the world. Each of these folk have brought their experience back at some stage as well as creating jobs in NZ supporting sailing, building boats (which is considered legendary in some parts of the world) and supplying the whole industry.

If it wasn't for the likes of Coutts and Butterworth among others who represented their country (Butterworth represented NZ in several campaigns) , NZ would not have the sailing experience to put a campaign together let alone win the damn thing in the first place.

These tall poppy choppers or knockers would resent if S.A. fans singled out Andrew Mehrtens and Irene Van Dyk for similar treatment. Or have the guts to walk up to Precious MacKenzie and call him a traitor for winning medals before he immigrated to NZ. Where were the likes of Deaker lambasting Shane Howarth, Inga Tuigamala, Brendon Laney, the Lester Brothers, Andrew Caddick for representing a country other than their NZ birthplace.

And do ya think it would be considered boorish if the US teams singled out Clay Oliver (designer Team NZ) or Australia had a go at Adam Beashal (who sailed for Young Australia last time around) well I damn well think so.

I think the best thing these guys can do is have a quiet think about their actions before they engage their mouths. The whole thing disgusts me - including the threats against people's families (which they have quietly dropped) and have a think about the families of everyone involved, the rest of the sailing fraternity (and we are brothers) and everyone working in the marine industry. Grow up you boorish idiots, ugly nationalism disguised as patriotism is still bullying.

[Moppie]

Originally posted by replicant_008


NZ has a history of being a little hothouse of bluewater sailing, in fact I think nearly every Volvo Ocean Race crew had a kiwi onboard -

As far as I know every single Volvo Ocean race yaught, has had at least one Kiwi on every boat, and before that back to the days of Steinlegar and Fisher and Paykel there was a Kiwi on nearly every boat.

And the Last Americas Cup challange featured a Kiwi as part of the team either on shore or on the boat in every team.
For example Young america hired NZ sail makes for the last challange, and took them back to the US with them when they left, to prepare for this years challange.


But as I said above none of the people involved are representing thier country of origin when competeing.
They are representing thier choosen team.
But there is still national pride to be had by seeing someone from your own country do well in thier chossen sport.
So this gives us Kiwis extra opertunitys to be proud of Kiwi success, whether we are succesful in defending the cup with Team New Zealand, or its won by a Kiwi skippered and crewed but forign sponsored Team.