The Heat Is On GM

[jgeorg]

Last night a national newscast broadcasted a segment on GM cars that have been plagued by coolant leaks into the engine. I've attached the link for those of you that might be interested. This is in Canada and I'm sure this has happened in the US much earlier. It might be valuable to some.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...hub=TopStories

[ilgoldstein]

This is the reason I took GM 3800 vehicles off my list when I recently shopped for a used car. Bought a 95 Roadmaster. While I read several posts by people who never had a problem with their 3800 engines, I also read posts by people who owned several cars with that engine who had the same problem with each of them.

It's a real shame, since otherwise the engine seems very solid.

[jgeorg]

It is a great engine otherwise and it can be corrected for a reasonable price before real damage is done that will cost you much more. I've owned 3 LeSabres that do not have this design and they have gone on average 375,000 kms. I had one that was at 525,000 kms but the body wouldn't pass the safety. It's too bad GM didn't step up earlier and look after their customers rather than keeping quiet for so long. Especially when it's people like you and me that keep them in business - or should I use the past tense.

[Loekee75]

If I'm correct, the coolant leakage that is being refered to here is due to the plastic intake manifolds on the series II 3800 engines? Like those commercials say, "Plastic makes it possible!"

[animekenji]

Originally Posted by Loekee75

If I'm correct, the coolant leakage that is being refered to here is due to the plastic intake manifolds on the series II 3800 engines? Like those commercials say, "Plastic makes it possible!"

You are correct. It is NOT the intake manifold gasket that is the problem. It is the deformities in the upper plenum caused by the heat of the EGR valve that causes the leak. If correcting the problem was all down to replacing a gasket, I think GM would do the recall. The problem is much bigger and with the number of series II engines produced from 95-05, a recall might bankrupt GM.

[roadpaver]

Originally Posted by animekenji

You are correct. It is NOT the intake manifold gasket that is the problem. It is the deformities in the upper plenum caused by the heat of the EGR valve that causes the leak. If correcting the problem was all down to replacing a gasket, I think GM would do the recall. The problem is much bigger and with the number of series II engines produced from 95-05, a recall might bankrupt GM.

Is there a picture on the internet of this area of manifold leak in the gm cars?

[HotZ28]

Yea, it's on;
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...ht=intake+leak
Also, at the link below, you will find all you ever wanted to know and more, about the subject;
http://www.bonnevilleclub.com/forum/...e=article&k=38

[animekenji]

I wonder how many cars are out there with replaced intakes on them. Does anyone have a car with a replacement plenum on it that has a lot of miles? How is it holding up so far? I am not sure if merely reinforcing the coolant passage makes me feel much more confident about leaving these cars on a future shopping list. The problem of the hot EGR valve still remains. As long as the EGR is still mounted on plastic, it will still get hot and the plastic will still break down. Even a reinforced coolant passage could still break open one day.

Something else I heard about these cars disturbs me as well. People have been reporting problems with the power window regulators in the 97-05 PA and 00-05 LeSabre and GM is not owning up to that design flaw either. I saw a report where one guy had all 4 windows die twice at various times and GM would only warranty one regulator. he had to pay for the 7 others that were replaced himself even though he was told by the tech who worked on the car that it was a common defect in those cars. What the hell is going on over at GM these days where they can't even keep the power windows working and where they won't cover obvious defects in design or workmanship anymore?? Maybe it's time to stop resisting the urge to buy Japanese, or maybe Korean. The new Hyundai Azera looks really nice and has a lot for the price and the longest, most comprehensive warranty in the business.

[roadpaver]

Originally Posted by HotZ28

Yea, it's on;
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...ht=intake+leak
Also, at the link below, you will find all you ever wanted to know and more, about the subject;
http://www.bonnevilleclub.com/forum/...e=article&k=38

The site was informative. I have a 2002 Lesabre in addition to the 1995 Lesabre that I have mentioned in other messages. Not long after I got the '02 I started smelling antifreeze. I wrote GM and they said they had a problem with leaking and for me to carry the car back to the dealer and they would take care of it. I did and so far so good. I have no idea of what they did except when I ask them they said they had to replace some bolts. I guess that is the way they had of telling the customers. Is there anything short of replacing the part or doing what was in the site you show above that they could have done? I am concerned now that I have read many stories about this that I wonder if it will come back to haunt me later.
Thanks

[HotZ28]

It is hard to guess what the dealer did. I don’t see how “replacing bolts” could solve the problem. Was your leak external? If so, you could have had a leak at the intake gasket and they put some stop leak in the radiator to stop it. Did you change, or have the coolant flushed, prior to the leaking?

[roadpaver]

Originally Posted by HotZ28

It is hard to guess what the dealer did. I don’t see how “replacing bolts” could solve the problem. Was your leak external? If so, you could have had a leak at the intake gasket and they put some stop leak in the radiator to stop it. Did you change, or have the coolant flushed, prior to the leaking?

No I hadn't done anything to the car as it was new at the time with probably less that 1k miles. They kept it for two days. And not sure if the leak was external. The only way I knew was the smell of antifreeze.
I did look at the top of the intake to see what date was on it but there were only two: A 3 and a 12 which I figured was 3rd day of the 12 month. On the 3 part there were 30 numbers and on the 12 part there were only 12 numbers which led me to believe the above was correct and not the year. Did not see a year stamp. Was wondering if they changed it out.

[gbeeley]

Originally Posted by animekenji

You are correct. It is NOT the intake manifold gasket that is the problem. It is the deformities in the upper plenum caused by the heat of the EGR valve that causes the leak. If correcting the problem was all down to replacing a gasket, I think GM would do the recall. The problem is much bigger and with the number of series II engines produced from 95-05, a recall might bankrupt GM.

As far as I know, GM has had trouble with both the plastic manifolds (the EGR heat problem) on the 3800, as well as intake manifold gaskets on the 3800 and other engines (a mechanic friend of mine had to replace one on a GM V8 and found out that it was a common issue). I think the news article conflated the two a bit. There was clearly a photo of a deteriorated intake manifold gasket in the article. But the 3800 series II well-known issue was that plastic manifold.

I had to replace my intake manifold gasket on my Series I 3800, but it had over 200,000 miles on it. The coolant leak was external rather than internal, thankfully My best guess was that the plastic carrier gets old and brittle, plus corrosion of the aluminum and iron caused expansion of the metals (corrosion takes up more room than the uncorroded metal), which in turn broke the gasket.

The replacement gasket set was identical in design.

If it leaks internally, as the article mentioned, it can kill the engine due to antifreeze contamination in the oil.

- GB