shoot me, just flipping shoot me! (96 3.8l)

[gord weir]

will this nightmare never end?!

this has been 6 weeks on this van so far. i have done the heads/gaskets twice and spent the last 3 weeks building a short block from the ground up.

i finally got the last parts/bolts ect installed last night and of course.... no start.

i have fuel pressure, injectors firing, spark at the plugs. i have checked the timing using a timeing light and it seems fine? (not sure if this is accurate way to judge the core timeing is correct or not)
i have tried unplugging the crank position sensor (cut the spark and injectors,,no help there), tested the can posistion sensor (removed, applied power and ground and spun by hand, it went from 12 to 0 to 12, so assume it works correctly)
is there a master reset on the computer i could try or another sensor affecting the timing? did i miss a ground wire somewhere that would affect the timing?

am i right in assuming the crank position sensor tells the computer the motor is moving and the cam postion sensor tells the computer when to time (fine tune the advance/retartd?). if this is basically how they work, then by the #1 plug firing when the crank marks are showing tdc means the core timeing (crank/cam/balancer) is lined up correctly? i hope they are, means pulling the motor out again to check for sure tho....

any suggestions??

i am giving this one more night before i give up completely on this project
thanks again

[Blue Bowtie]

Gord,

As for the sensors, I'm not certain what the resolution of the CMP and CKP are on the Ford V-6, so I don't know what the scheme would be like. It's common to have the crank sensor trigger 1X, 10X, or 60X, and the CMP trigger at a rate based on the number of cylinders. No matter, so long as you are able to read spark with a timing light and it is near TDC on #1, you should have resonably correct timing for starting. The fact that you are able to read the sensor turning on-off-on indicates it is producing signal.

I almost hate to ask, but how it the valve timing? (Do you have cranking compression?)

You mentioned you have "spark at the plugs." Did you test with a spark tester or just with the plug removed and grounded? If you have a fuel soaked plug, it can shunt the spark energy to ground without ever producing spark.

[gord weir]

just had another thought..... is there any special tricks to installing the cam position sensor? i didnt notice any marks on the gear on the shaft or the one on the cam so i assumed you just placed it in anywhich way. the chaps at the shell station down the street had no idea and suggested i call the dealer on it.
the way i tested the plugs was grounding with screwdriver and this is the 3rd time i have been told today that the cylenders might be flooded. i will head over to the garage tonight and check it out.
was also told the easiest way to check if the cam is out is by removing the valave cover, rotate the crank to tdc, and check the rockers. if they are level to each other and the rods are loosish then the cam should be correct meaning the problem i have most likely will be the cam posistion sensor.
heading to the wreckers now to try and find one, could be tough tho. dont suppose any of the other year motors use the same sensor?
was also explained to me that the crank one controles the spark and the cam one controles the injectors. if that is the case then my problem is definitly the cam sensor or cam out of position,

thanks for your help

[Blue Bowtie]

Actually, the PCM controls the spark and injector pulses, and uses both sensors to get a handle on engine cycle position to enable true sequential injection and individual cylinder control. I'm not sure about the Ford EECs, but the GM systems used both sensors and if one signal was lost the system would revert to a "batch fire" mode for the injectors and more basic timing for spark. It would actually start and run with one dead sensor, although not quite as well, but not poorly enough so that it could even be noticed except for the MIL light staring the driver in the face.

[garync1]

Its not spitting and trying to backfire is it?? The cam could be degrees off the crank timming... In other words the cam has the exhaust valves open when the intake valves should be open. This is common mistake sometimes.

[wiswind]

I do remember reading that the camshaft position sensor must be installed just one set position.
There are several posts on this in this forum..... so I would recommend that you do a search in this forum on this.
I have never done it.....just read the posts.
Most I have done is replace the sensor, which did not involve any position of the gear.....just 2 little bolts.....and swap the sensor on the top of the gear setup.

I also remember that the "static" timing was 10 degrees ahead of TDC.
There is a process to follow to get that reading, your manual should have that.

[LeSabre97mint]

Originally Posted by gord weir

will this nightmare never end?!

this has been 6 weeks on this van so far. i have done the heads/gaskets twice and spent the last 3 weeks building a short block from the ground up.

i finally got the last parts/bolts ect installed last night and of course.... no start.

i have fuel pressure, injectors firing, spark at the plugs. i have checked the timing using a timeing light and it seems fine? (not sure if this is accurate way to judge the core timeing is correct or not)
i have tried unplugging the crank position sensor (cut the spark and injectors,,no help there), tested the can posistion sensor (removed, applied power and ground and spun by hand, it went from 12 to 0 to 12, so assume it works correctly)
is there a master reset on the computer i could try or another sensor affecting the timing? did i miss a ground wire somewhere that would affect the timing?

am i right in assuming the crank position sensor tells the computer the motor is moving and the cam postion sensor tells the computer when to time (fine tune the advance/retartd?). if this is basically how they work, then by the #1 plug firing when the crank marks are showing tdc means the core timeing (crank/cam/balancer) is lined up correctly? i hope they are, means pulling the motor out again to check for sure tho....

any suggestions??

i am giving this one more night before i give up completely on this project
thanks again

Gore

Sorry to hear that this thing isn't working out for you! When I did the headgaskets in my 95 I had a no-start situation and found that there was a major plug that I hadn't gotten pushed in all of the way. However, you say that you have all of the things requires to make an engine run, at least fire, sputter, make some kind of indication that there is "life" in that thing, so this may not be the case with you.

Have you pulled the plugs to see if the fuel is making it to the cylinders? If fuel is making it to the cylinders, the plugs should be wet with gas. If the plugs are wet, and you have spark to the plugs, and there is compression, it should start.

If the plugs are dry, try a bit of starting fluid (not too much---a guick shot and then try to start it) into the air intake. If it fires/starts and then dies there is a fuel issue.

If you would like to talk on the phone about this issue, PM me and I'll PM you back with my Cel phone #. (I get weekends free air time in the USA)

Regards

Dan