Is it an Axle (CV Joint), a Wheel Bearing or Tranny issue?

[Ed_Strong]

My 2000 3.8l LX has developed a slight vibration but loud groanning sound in what I think is coming from the right front side. It gets louder at around 40 - 60 MPH and its hard to pin point. it actually feels like it's coming from the middle of the vehicle and sounds/feels a lot like a clothes washer machine going on the spin cycle.
When I jack up the tires and rock'em side to side there's no end play (except for some slight link play at the front tires). Rocking the tires top to bottom doesn't produce any end play either, so it leads me to believe that the Wheel Bearings are OK.
Only when I jacked up the front tires and ran the engine in gear was when I could feel the noise and vibration on the right front tire... so what could it be? Is there another test I could do to diagnose the problem better?
I've got about 45K miles on it and did a tranny flush & filter change my self about 7 months ago at @35K miles and it was running great ever since.
I keep thinking it's a wheel bearing but cannot be certain. How about CV Joints? I don't see too many posts here about CV Joint issues, but now, after doing the Isolator Bolts leckemby.net procedure and replacing the Spark Plugs last month the van started to shutter ocassionally when I accelerate (not sure if related this problem). There is no slipage and tranny feels normal. But read on another thread where one poster says:

Originally Posted by AvalonJohn

Lately, (sometimes) my car shutters when I accelerate. There is no slipage and trans feels fine (replaced at 65K). Now have 113 K on 99 Windstar. Anyone know what the problem may be ? Looked at Haynes manual under "Troubleshooting" and it said something about inner CV joints. Also said on 99's they can't be serviced.

so it made me wonder if I have a CV Joint problem. How can I be certain? Do you guys think I may be developing Tranny Issues? If so how can I diagnose for that?
Is it hard to replace a Wheel Bearing or a CV Joint on a Winstar or is it a job better to leave for the well equiped mechanic?
I've done a wheel bearing on a '91 Chevy car and a CV Joint on a 95' Grand Caravan but never done either on a FORD before, so I don't know what I'm up against...

[LeSabre97mint]

Ed

I had a wheel bearing go bad on my 95. I didn't hear any noise but my steering got a lot of play in it. I've also seen wheel bearings go bad by making noise but no play. I've been able to check the bearing while driving by turning the steering wheel slightly to the right or left and listening for a change of the tone of the noise.

As to replacing a wheel bearing on a Ford. On my 95 the wheel bearing is pressed in to the hub which will require a press to replace it.

Regards

Dan

[Ed_Strong]

Yes, thanks LeSabre97mint, appreciate your fast reply.
I've already checked the bearing by turning the wheel slightly to the right or left and listening for a change of the tone of the noise as you said (forgot to mention that fact earlier). And by the way it does sounds louder when I put weight on the right side of the van.
But I think that could also mean a faulty axle aswell, so this test is not a complete diagnose. I need something more specific that would rule out the bearing or CV Joint and pin point the problem acurately.
The boots on the CV Joints look good and there are no signs of grease leakage, but then again when the axle went on my '95 Grand Caravan it didn't show any of those signs either.

As to the wheel bearing being pressed in to the hub I'm not sure if a 2000 will be the same, but I've also heard of Auto parts stores selling a complete hub unit with the bearing already pressed, have not looked into it yet.
Then again I could do the hard part if it's not too complicated and take the hub out and then to a place with a press to replace it... just a thought

[12Ounce]

I would think a CV axle failure would be indicated by a "throbbing sound" (even a "clicking") sound, not a "groaning sound" at lower speeds. I'd bet on the wheel bearing.

I just finished up both axle replacements on a '83 Escort. Not rocket science. I would expect the Winnie to be easier.

Remove and hang the brake assembly using 1/2" tie wraps. Disconnect tie rod outer. Remove strut assembly ... you won't need spring compressor if you are not going to disassemble. Have a large two-jaw puller available to pull the hub off the axle. Don't use a hammer on nuttin! .... unless you intend to rebuild the knuckle&hub yourself.

If you intend to rebuild the knuckle&hub, buy the bearings and seals from Ford. Aftermarket bearings have gotten really bad lately. I usually knock the bearings out of the knuckle using a hammer ... but I almost never use hammer, just a little tap or two perhaps, when reassembling.

Put the bearings in a zip-loc bag and place in freezer overnight. Clean the knuckle of all grease and place on outdoor grill. Get the hub hot enough so that water dropped on it will spatter into steam. Remove knuckle from grill and cool to the point that the water spatter is almost nil. With a brush, apply some grease to the knuckle bearing journal area, the grease should almost run/smoke ... but not quite. At this point the (cold/shrunken) bearing outer races (or assemblies, what ever is used on the Winnier) will "fall" into the hot/expanded knuckle ... no press needed. If the knuckle is too hot, the grease will start coming out of the bearing assembly ... have some wet shop rags ready to cool down the knuckle quickly.

Have a socket, or something round, slightly less diameter than the bearing ready for assisting/tapping bearing into place if needed.

.... Oh, be sure to have some leather gloves in case you want to handle the knuckle!

[LeSabre97mint]

Originally Posted by Ed_Strong

Yes, thanks LeSabre97mint, appreciate your fast reply.
I've already checked the bearing by turning the wheel slightly to the right or left and listening for a change of the tone of the noise as you said (forgot to mention that fact earlier). And by the way it does sounds louder when I put weight on the right side of the van.
But I think that could also mean a faulty axle aswell, so this test is not a complete diagnose. I need something more specific that would rule out the bearing or CV Joint and pin point the problem acurately.
The boots on the CV Joints look good and there are no signs of grease leakage, but then again when the axle went on my '95 Grand Caravan it didn't show any of those signs either.

As to the wheel bearing being pressed in to the hub I'm not sure if a 2000 will be the same, but I've also heard of Auto parts stores selling a complete hub unit with the bearing already pressed, have not looked into it yet.
Then again I could do the hard part if it's not too complicated and take the hub out and then to a place with a press to replace it... just a thought

I agree with 12ounce and with you saying that the sound changes with turning the wheel that you have a wheel bearing going out.

12ounce, thanks for the tip on replacing the wheel bearingI was aware of the heat/chill methoud but hadn't thought of using it for this. I stole the hub off of my 98 for my 95 because I didn't want to pay for a shop to press a new bearing in.

Dan

[12Ounce]

I used to use a press for this task. Well, not a REAL press ... just a long threaded rod, nuts, washers, and all my 3/4" and 1/2" sockets ... you get the drill. A bit clumsy, but it worked.

And then I tried the thermal-difference method just as an experiment ... have been using it ever since.

[Ed_Strong]

OK, thanks for the info. I'm 90% convinced it's a wheel bearing aswell... BUT, the wheel did have a "throbbing sound" as you describe it, but only when I jacked up and ran the wheel in the air, so that 10% that makes me think of maybe having a bad Axle assembly still haunts me.
With the wheels on the ground while driving at low speed (15-30MPH) the vibration feels like if I had those big knobi/chunky off road truck tires and then above that it feels like a washer machine on spin cycle. I think you guyts are right about the wheel bearing.
I do have a couple of questions...
Will I need an alligment afterwards?
How much for the large two-jaw puller to pull the hub off the axle. At times like these I hate not having an AutoZone store near by to lend the tool from them...
Whats the size of the bearing hub/axle nut? I have a 30mm and a 32mm from the previous repairs on the Chevy & Dodge! But I don't know the size on a FORD, hopefully one of this two will fit the nut.

The FORD Repair CD tells me I need a new:

CAUTION:
A new wheel hub retainer must be installed, if it is loosened or removed. Failure to install a new retainer after removal can result in loss of the front wheel or damage to the wheel hub and bearing assembly.

CAUTION:
The front axle wheel hub retainer must be tightened to specification immediately during installation. If the retainer is not tightened immediately, the nylon lock will set incorrectly, leading to incorrect torque readings and bearing failure. Any front wheel hub retainer that is not immediately tightened to specification or is loosened must be removed and a new retainer installed.

Note:
The Windstar uses a wheel hub and bearing assembly and is not repaired separately.

Remove and discard the wheel hub retainer.
Remove and discard the tie-rod end cotter pin and the castellated nut.
Remove and discard the front stabilizer bar link nut and separate the front stabilizer bar link (5K483).
Remove and discard the ball joint pinch bolt and nut.
Note:
The wheel hub is a slip-fit design and should not require a puller to remove. Remove and discard the three wheel hub retaining bolts and remove the wheel hub.

Do these parts come with the new hub or bearing assembly or do I need to go get them separately? Thats a lot of remove & discard stuff if you ask me!
How much should I expect to pay a mechanic to get'er done if I decide to go that route?

[12Ounce]

OK, I got out my '99 Winnie shop manual. Things have been redesigned from the old days .... and most of what I posted above is bogus. Sorry! It may apply to earlier models (now that I went back and made some corrections) ... but it won't work for the '99 and later models very much at all.

I gotta get the semantics right!

The front "hub" is what you mount the wheel on. It has studs for mounting the wheel and brake discs. The axle runs thru it ... they are fitted together with splines and a nut & washer or a nut/washer ("front wheel hub retainer"). [Back in the earlier designs, when you attached the axle to the front hub ... you also were assembling the inner sleeve of the hub, thru the bearings, to the steering "knuckle".] The "knuckle is the thing that the strut slides into, that the control arm(s) fasten to, that the tie rod outer joint fastens to ... etc, etc.

In the newer design, the hub is a cartridge affair that carries the bearings totally integral to it ... the bearings are no longer directly mounted to knuckle. The inner race of the hub bearing is "splined" for connecting to the axle. Separating the axle from the hub will still require a puller (unless you're one of those hammer guys). I think that comment in the manual about not requiring a puller is a bit misleading ... but what's new! Once the axle is pushed out of the hub (bearing), then the hub can easily be separated from the knuckle with three bolt removal.

In the old Escort design, the nut on the splined axle required 190 ftlbs. On the '99 Winnie the "front wheel hub retainer" requires 180 ftlbs. Guess some things haven't changed that much after all.

[Ed_Strong]

Thanks 12Ounce...
I did a little bit of shopping and it seems that the Bearing doesn't sell as one piece, instead it's sold as a whole piece Hub Assembly as I've heard before. At least I won't have to worry about fighting with pressing the parts together.
AutoZone.com has a Timken / Wheel Bearing/Hub Assembly-Front #513156 w/ 1YR Warranty for $129.99
and my favorite FORD guys at GenuineFordParts.com have a Description-Front hub, windstar | Year-99-03 | MSRP Price-$93.03 | Your Price-$68.38
Well that's a no brainer, only problem is that the site is really hard to navigate their catalogs and I cannot find all the little hardware (hub retainer, hub bolts & nuts, cotter pins, axle nut, etc.) that goes with it. will have to call Monday to place the order. Just for fun I'll call my local FORD dealer to see what they offer...

[12Ounce]

Yeah, I could have written that a bit clearer ... the hub and the bearing are sold together as one piece ...not to be serviced, except that the studs are replaceable if ever needed.

Sometimes the Ford dealership has better pricing than expected.

[Ed_Strong]

Well I did the hub replacement today and I'm sad to report that the noise and vibration are still going strong and exactly the same way as before. So, $120 shorter and 4:30 hours on a hot muggy afternoon just wasted... Im so dissapointed!
So I'm thinking the tranny might be the culprit. It's a shame at only 45.5K miles on it. I'm thinking about getting rid of it before it becomes worse or it breaks down on me.
At days like today is when I miss my father the most...!

[huskerdooo]

Ed,

Are you going to replace the cv's now? My situation is exactly like yours with the symptoms. Even makes a louder sound/vibe when weight is on right side. (e.g. on a crowned road, the situation is worse when I am in the right hand side). I guess it is a shame you didn't throw in the cv when you had it apart.

My van has 149K on it now. trans replaced around 92kish.

I plan on driving mine till failure if I can determine whatever issue(s) is/are not a safety problem(s).

[Ed_Strong]

I can't be certain it's the axle. From the beginig I felt like the noise and vibration came from the middle of the van (Tranny area). What made me decide on replacing the right front Wheel Hub was when I jacked up the van and let it run on gear it only vibrated on the right side, plus it definetly sounded and felt like a bad bearing.
Yesterday I jacked up the van again and had the wife do the engine running on gear and brake while I looked under the van. I saw the axle spin as it's supposed to... no wobbling, no vibration, it all looked normal. This makes me think there's something wrong inside the tranny (maybe a bearing inside of it) giving me the same simptoms of a wheel bearing gone bad.
The engine doesn't tremmble as much when looking from the outside either, but the steering wheel and column feels like it's gonna fall off.

[huskerdooo]

Ed,

So you think the vibration is getting transmitted through the half shafts to the wheels? I can feel the vibe through the wheel when de-accel or when weight is shifted to one side on a crowned road. The de-accel feels like the old days when I had a bad drive shaft. the vibe on weight shift feels like the old days with bad bearings.

How is the rest of your front end?

[12Ounce]

Ed, I'm just now reading the comment about vibration in the steering wheel and column. ??? Under what situations does this happen? Is it possible the coupling between the column and steering rack is loose?