Pledge Ruled Unconstitutional

[Moppie]

Read this: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp..._of_allegiance


I dont think I need to say anything really.

oh, other than:

HOW CAN THE STUPID FUCKING YANKS HAVE ONLY JUST FIGURED THIS OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!






Im sorry, but that is ment to be offensive.
You live in a country founded on Freedom, and importantly Freedom of Religion, then all your nations laws, and all your political leaders have been VERY stronly Christian biased.

The US is founded and run on Hypocrisy

And Now, after how ever many years, Your legal system finnaly realises this, and a couple of Judges have enough balls to say it and what happens? They get slammed by the President! and Gongress.
You have to wonder about how great, true and Pure the US legal system really is if the Presidant is allowed to bag it, and call its rullings "ridiculous" simply becasue they happen to dissagree with his own personal religious beliefs.
If he was a man of any integrity he would have said, "yes, it seems that what they have ruled is correct, and that in the name of Freedom I shall remove the words as soon as I return. But it will not stop me from saying my prayers every orning and night."

The Constituition clearly states that Goverment and religion should always be kept seperate.
Yet how many US presidents have been Christian (all of them) and how many have made a big deal about it (all of them).
And then how intwined into the US legal system is it? reading the article is seems it couldn't operate with out religious referances.

You want to know why so much of the non-christian world is against the US? well its becasue the only religious freedom in the US is a few never looked at words on an often talked about but never acted upon piece of paper.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Moppie
Yet how many US presidents have been Christian (all of them) and how many have made a big deal about it (all of them).

I thought Clinton was a catholic... i'm probably wrong tho...

I hated doing the pledge, its a waste of time that could have been used for other things such as sleeping... :P

It wouldn't bother me one bit if they changed the pledge...

-Grendel

[Moppie]

Originally posted by Grendel


I thought Clinton was a catholic... i'm probably wrong tho...

Catholisism is a form of christianity.

But you've made me one happy Kiwi by not getting upset or offended.
It shows there is some hope for the US yet.

[darkness]

:hehehe:

When I was living in California, I wouldn't say the pledge on general principle. I didn't think I should have to as I was not a citizen of the US.

[speediva]

Forcing the kid to say it was stupid. The teacher should have known better. How much harm does it do her to listen to the word "God"? None.

When I heard the father's argument I wish he would have crawled in a hole so I could fill it with water. What's next? "I'm offended by the mentioning of things that may or may not exist, so can you please not say "Tooth Fairy"???" WTF? Get a grip.

TOOTH FAIRY! TOOTH FAIRY! TOOTH FAIRY!!!!!!

[boingo82]

I always liked saying the pledge, but I just didn't say the 'under God' part, as I understood it to be optional. It was, after all, not part of the original pledge, but added in as an afterthought. Yes, our Government stresses religious freedom while simultaneously yabbering about religion, but most of the country's forefathers were looking to practice their own variations of christianity in freedom. I don't know how much thought was given to Aetheism, Wicca, or other such religions or lack thereof. Right now it just seems to be a 'majority rules' thing.

[ci5ic]

You kiwi's have no idea how fucked up we really are. That's just the tip of the iceberg.

I will say this though... I think there's alot more important things for the leaders of our country to concern themselves with besides some biblical references.

I appreciate the fact that you find this funny, Moppie, but I really do have to disagree with you're last statement:

"You want to know why so much of the non-christian world is against the US? well its becasue the only religious freedom in the US is a few never looked at words on an often talked about but never acted upon piece of paper."

It's a known fact that our constitution is acted upon perpetually... sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse, depending on who you ask. If you knew as much about our way of life as you seem to, then you would know this statement to be false.

As for the seperation of church and state, who gives a fuck? If I don't believe in god, ain't nobody gonna make me say the pledge of allegience. And I'm not likely being brain-washed by our currency just because it references the christian god. If you ask me, the whole thing is a waste of time and money which could be better used for other purposes.

[darkness]

I agree with that. it doesn't really matter that much.

As for the separation of church and state, a big dicussion always was prayer in school. And it was summed up beautifully by one of the American high scholl teachers that I had.

"As long as there are final exams, there will always be prayer in school".

[Grendel]

Originally posted by darkness
I agree with that. it doesn't really matter that much.

As for the separation of church and state, a big dicussion always was prayer in school. And it was summed up beautifully by one of the American high scholl teachers that I had.

"As long as there are final exams, there will always be prayer in school".

I have heard that quote a ton of times... whenever we had final exams, I never prayed, I just cheated :P j/k

-Grendel

[Moppie]

Originally posted by ci5ic


It's a known fact that our constitution is acted upon perpetually... sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse, depending on who you ask. If you knew as much about our way of life as you seem to, then you would know this statement to be false.

Agreed, it was written with hast.
Altough I do still believe its not acted upon to its fullest potential, i.e the speration of religion from government.


I would actualy love to spend 12mnths living in the US.
Just to see whats it's (<- is that ok Moon?) really like.
We are so heavily bombared with US culture here, in all its forms that it becomes hard to seperate what is reality and what is sensationalism.

[DVSNCYNIKL]

Ahhh Moppie! I see you're at it again.

We had a discussion on this a while back so I will now make my opinion public.

Being a US citizen, voting and all that good stuff, I have to say that I don't agree with this country's politics 100%. My reason for this is simple. This government does not give me all of the details when asked a question. Should your questions get to involved, they do things to either ruin your credibility or what have you. This is not fiction, but a fact. You look into our "Glorious" history, and people who've gained momentum against this country or felt that something could be done different, had something happen to them.

Now, this whole religion and government thing. Well, to be honest, this government has been so against the two being together that now that things are catching up to it, it disagrees with itself. It's quite embarassing if you think about how other countries are now viewing this. Which also brings up another point. This country is so concerned with other people's, countries problems, that it can't even address domestic issues. This money and power hungry country does more than they appear to lead on. But the American people choose to believe what they want, I choose to believe what I want. So don't always go with the media, as they are not always giving you the full facts.

[kris]

Originally posted by Moppie

STUPID FUCKING YANKS HAVE ONLY JUST FIGURED THIS OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!

:

You know, to some people this statement could mean the same thing as saying, stupid fucking nigger to a african american, or stupid fucking spic, to a hispanic person, or even stupid fucking redneck to a southerner (in the states only).

[00GSR]

This is copied from my PH post last night. It is not complete, but it is good enough:

As I said before, this is just political correctness making its way back into mainstream politics, which I find troublesome, to say the least. I am very busy at the moment, but I am going to try and address this in a condensed manner. I find it important to point out first though, that this ruling does not deal specifically with schools forcing students to say the Pledge of Allegiance, but rather it deems the action of a school’s endorsement of the Pledge unconstitutional. Students are not forced to recite the Pledge in any public school, and this ruling allows a student to add the words “under God” back into the Pledge if they so desire to. What this decision actually does is overturn a congressional act adding the phrase “under God” to the Pledge in 1954. The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals deemed the congressional action unconstitutional because it violates the first amendment, but here is why they are wrong. The first amendment to the United States Constitution reads as follows (shortened to applicable section):

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

This amendment prevents the establishment of a government-dictated religion, hence the often-used phrase for the section, “the establishment clause.” This was put forth by the founding fathers in a time where the Royal British Crown established and enforced compliance with a national religion. Needless to say, the words “under God” do nothing near to establishing a national religion. “Under God” does not even promote one religion over another, but rather infers to the presence of an omnipotent being. Now, there are a few who do not believe in a supreme being, but unfortunately for them the foundations of this great country were based on a contrary belief. For example, take a look back at the Declaration of Independence. Here is the first paragraph:

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

And here is the first section of the second paragraph:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

As you can see, this declaration shows beyond a reasonable doubt the founders trust in a higher being, so how can one say their intentions in the Constitution were that of a different nature? With that said, if a party chooses not to use the words “under God” in reciting the pledge, or doesn’t feel the need to recite the pledge at all, that is their right under the freedom of speech. But to say including the phrase within the Pledge of Allegiance is unconstitutional is nothing short of bullshit. Not to worry though, this courts ruling (a court that has been overturned more times than any other court in the nation due to its liberal activism) will be overturned by the United States Supreme Court. Immediately after the ruling the United States Senate passed a resolution 99-0 to support the Pledge. Additionally, Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle (a liberal Democrat) has requested that all senators be in the chamber at 9:30am tomorrow to recite the Pledge of Allegiance, including “under God.” I would be willing to bet that there is enough support behind this to amend the Constitution if the US Supreme Court were to uphold the ruling, which they will not, with the exception of Ginsburg, of course...

As far as forcing a student to recite the pledge that does not wish to, that is out of line. But I feel they SHOULD be forced to sand up while the others recite the pledge. Why? Out of respect for the flag, what it stands for, and the countrymen who have sacrificed or endangered their own lives to protect the great nation! If you do not believe in what the flag represents (a la the pledge), that is your own choice. But while you are in this country, in a public school, paid for by the citizens of this country, you will respect it.

Sorry that I do not have time to completely formulate my ideas and present them in a more concise manner. If I have left anything out (such as the money issue "in God we trust" or "God bless America") it is for that reason. I must add one thing though; I am sure James Madison is turning over in his grave today as to one of his greatest fears coming true, the faction: tyranny of the minority.


Here is the addition I made today:

Two additional things that didn't even cross my mind until I heard them this mourning. 1. The oath of office for the Vice President, the Congressional oath of office, the Armed Forces oath of enlistment and officer’s oath, and the National Guard oath of enlistment and officer’s oath all include the phrase 'so help me God’ at the end. The phrase is not officially in the Presidential oath of office, but has been added verbally by every modern President; an action first performed by George Washington, where he added, "I swear, so help me God" then knelt and kissed the Bible. 2. Every single day that the United States Supreme Court is in session, the marshal begins by saying, "God save this honorable court." Well, I guess those will have to go as well.. This thing doesn’t stand a chance of being upheld. Can't wait to see the Gallup polls on this...considering even the most liberal lawmakers are infuriated by this ruling.

[00GSR]

Originally posted by Moppie
The Constituition clearly states that Goverment and religion should always be kept seperate.

Here is our Constitution: http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitut....overview.html

Please show me where is so clearly states the separation between church and state....

You will not find it. Why? Because that notion is implied from the first amendment! This is a very fuzzy area because the first amendment ONLY deals with the establishment of a national government by congress, or the outlawing of a religion...

[00GSR]

Originally posted by kbslacker



You know, to some people this statement could mean the same thing as saying, stupid fucking nigger to a african american, or stupid fucking spic, to a hispanic person, or even stupid fucking redneck to a southerner (in the states only).

I completely agree, but have came to expect this from Moppie. Maybe he should reread his guidelines regarding flaming in H/A OT...